athletes with PMR | Arthritis Information

 

Hi - I'm new to the site.  I'm a 59 yr old British man who has been actively involved in sport most of my life.  I was diagnosed with PMR at the end of April '07 and started taking prednisolone at the beginning of August, after trying to live with the increasing pain for the intervening three months.  I am currently taking 15mg per day which is holding the pain in check and enabling me to at least swim every day.

I have one or two concerns which I would like to share with any other sport-minded individuals who have been inflicted with this disease.  I am desperate to maintain an active and sport-filled future but want to go about recoery from PMR in a structured and sensible way.

Any sports people out there who have PMR, have recovered from PMR, know of anyone who has recovered to full health following PMR and is now able to fulfil sporting dreams once more ?

Graham

Hi Graham, and welcome. I'm also in the UK (Lancater), started with this
in November 06, diagnosed in Dec and started then on 40mg of pred. I'm
now down to 3.5mg.

I don't do sport, but had been going to the gym every day, plus swimming
to reabilitate myself after a very slow healing boken (Nov 05) metatarsal.
I found once PMR started that pushing myself on rowing machines etc
was not a good idea as it made me drip with sweat, and completely wiped
me out, and made me achier and stiffer. My GP said that I would be far
better just walking as this was weight bearing, and I needed that to help
counteract the effects of the predisolone on the bones. Also I was
concerned that as the pred lowers the immune system, I would be better
in the open air than the gym.

I have found though that walking helps enormously. I've kept the weight
gain down, and feel better for it. I walk about an hour most mornings
and afternoons.

There are others on this forum who are more active who will probably join
in,- the only other information I have is of a friend of a friend (male in his
60's) who was a keen skier (lives in the Cairngorms) - had PMR for 2 years
is now clear, and back to skiing - Cairngorm snow permitting.

cheers

margaret

Hi Margaret - thanks for your response to my message.  Really good to have someone respond who has been through, or is going through, this 'thing' I'm experiencing.  Your information is very helpful.  To know that you started off on such a high dosage and have now come done to only 3.5 mg is of great help to me.

My doctor started me off on 5 mg !! and said to GO UP if needed.  I've only been taking the steroids for three weeks and have found it necessary to go from 5 to 10 and now 15 mgs.  Still I experience pain and I'm now going to ask the doctor if I should go the route you heve taken i.e. a high dose then come down to a low dose.

Thanks so much for your time and information - much appreciated.

Please stay in touch or put others on to me if your would be so kind.

Regards - Graham

Graham,

Interesting the dosing regimen. I'd read that the docs usually start with 10-20 mg prednisone and then taper down. I guess they all don't. I did pretty well on 10 mg, and was off pred. after one year. My current rheumy said one year is not long enough, but I gained 36 lbs. in less than a year, and was then put on plaquenil, which didn't seem to help much. I think my PMR has burned itself out, or maybe I have still have a very mild form. Hard to tell. I am not really athletic - did used to walk 2-4 miles 5 days a week until the PMR, and then I was lucky to be able to do about 1/2 mile before I was diagnosed and put on pred. Did lap swimming for a while, too, until my rotator cuff went bad and had arthroscopic surgery. Seems that when I hit 45, my body started to gradually break down. I walked 3 miles a day till the PMR started. I also rode a bike and somehow
have been able to continue that! If I stretch right before and after I can ride..
Really miss walking and hiking though! Has been hard on the hips. I plan on
tryong again as soon as work slows down.
pgr555

Hello Graham,

I'm newly diagnosed and wasn't able to keep up my 2-6 mile daily walks for the past 2 years.  Now that I'm on 10 mg of Pred (7 days) I'm able to do some walking but still get pain in my hips, knees and shoulders if I do more than a mile.  So I'm starting slow. For me I think it's just a matter of working through the pain as much as I can and keeping active enough to bounce back once this awful condition goes away.

Please keep us informed of your progress (thinking positive

You take care, and welcome to the group!  You will always find someone to talk to here so don't hesitate to post your questions and concerns.

Kathy

 

Hi Graham and everyone else

My GP started me at 40mg, partly I think as a diagnostic tool. I had total
and instant pain relief. He then told me to drop to 20mg after 3 days.
The painn all came back. I rang him, and he told me to take an extra
20mg - and he turned up at my house at 9pm to see if tht had worked.
How's that for the NHS! After that I stayed on 40mg for another 2 days or
so, and the came down in 5mg jumps every few days until I got to 20mg,
the 2.5 drops every week until I got to about 12.5. Then I started going
much slower, and much smaller drops. I think different Drs have different
regimes - but mine worked on the principle of lets get the inflammation
and therefore the pain under control, get your life back, and then
concentrate on getting the dosage down.

I agree with the others - I've had a big struggle learning to pace myself
and not do too much in one day. It hasn't come easily!

I'm off on holiday today - a week in the Lakes, and then a week on the
Norfolk Broads (sorry that won't mean anything to non-Brits - the Lakes
ins a mountainous area with lots of lakes, and rain!, and the broads are
flat fenland with lots of waterways). Talk to you all when I get back


Margaret

Hi to you all.

Thank you all so much for making me part of a 'group'.  Its been interesteing and comforting to read your responses to my original posting.

I am off to see my GP in the morning (Tues) and am now able to go armed with some (hopefully) useful questions that need answering thanks to your experiences.

Can anyone let me know what sort of regime they follow in taking their Pred?  I am currently taking 15mg around 5 p.m..  I find they take 4 or 5 hours to kick in completely which then gives me a reasonable night's sleep if I go to bed around 9.30 or 10.  I'm usually up around 4.30 to 5 and my 'best' hours are then between 6 a.m. and around 1 p.m.  After that the effect is slowly wearing off and I'm ready to take more Pred. around 4 p.m.

The logic behind this was that if I get a reasonable night's sleep then its easier to face the discomfort on the following day.  A poor night's sleep makes the following day a lot more difficult to bear.

What are your opinions to me attacking this disease with a much stronger dose of Pred. - say 30 or 40 mg - at this stage and then bring it down ?  Its not something I want to do as I'm loathe to put any form of steroids into my body - but your thoughts would be interesting to me. (Pred. is all I take - no other medicine).

I ask you because you will most certainly have more idea about treating and managing this 'thing' than any GP I've ever met.  I did have an excellent conversation with a rheumatoidology consultant at the outset of this condition but I can't get back to see him, I now have to go through my GP again and, quite honestly, your opinions will carry more weight with me than a GP's !!

My current dosage and regime allows me to get to a local sports club around 8 a.m. get in a sauna for about 15 mins, swim a fairly easy 150 mtrs in the pool followed by another 10 mins in the sauna.  I certainly feel quite human when I've done.

Anyone else have a regime that works for them they'd like to share?

When the PMR hit me at the end of April '07 I went on a very strict diet (vegan + oily fish + supplements), which made the weight fall off.  I've now eased on the diet but still take quite a few (fairly expensive) supplements twice a day.  Any thoughts on this ?

Once again, thanks to you all for your support its much appreciated.

Graham

Graham,

From what I understand, it is best to take the pred. in the morning. I think that is when your adrenal gland would naturally be kicking it into the system, so they like to keep as close to the body's schedule as possible. I have heard of taking part of the dose in the evening for a while. You might ask a pharmacist about that (they will probably know more than your GP). Guess I was lucky and had no problem sleeping after I'd started pred. The pain was keeping me awake, and when I didn't have the pain any more, I could finally sleep. If you are still having quite a bit of discomfort on your present dosage, then increasing it for a while would not be unreasonable. Then when the pain is better controlled, you can work at decreasing slowly. As far as taking any other things along with the prednisone, I'm afraid I can't help you there. Most of the NSAIDS and over the counter things like Tylenol, Aleve and such don't really work for me. Some of the other folks on this forum seem to have good luck taking an over the counter pain reliever along with their prednisone.

Good for you with the diet you did. You've got more discipline than I do. I would say keep taking the supplements you are taking if they seem to be helping. My rheumy is all for supplements if they work for a person. I found that 2000-4000 mg of MSM seem to help me a bit so I take that.

Hope your visit with your GP turns out well.

Reni
Graham,
I take 15 mg in the morning (around 7 am) and then 5 mg with dinner
(7-8?). My rheumy did that because 20 in the morning was really
speeding me and I wasn't sleeping at night. This way i fall asleep about
11 pm and get up about 6:30 - 7:30. It i working much better for me. My
understanding is also that morning dose is recommended for adrenal
purposes.

I already had a good diet... fishatarian (no red meat or poultry) no
nightshades - for those of you who don't know, nightshades are tomato,
potato, ALL PEPPERS - ie red green paprika, cayeanne, chili, etc - except
balck and white - and eggplant. I have been allergic to nightshades for a
while, but they are also now widely accepted by traditional medicine as
really aggravating arthritis. Dairy is the other inflammatory that I was
already allergic to, but now know is on the list of thing to stay away from
for inflammatory diseases.

The new one for me that is reall a problem is GLUTEN. I am testing
staying off it for a short time. It is widely accepted now as very connectd
to arthritic conditions, and all auto immune problems.

Yes I eat more than air!!! Seafood, fresh veggies, fruit, non-gluten
grains...
2 more things: I have used accupuncture for years. It never helped the
PMR pain, however it cleared my system of the toxins I was eating,
stopped many food cravings. Whe I 1st started it 10 years ago I was really
unable to stop eating and it changed my appetite in 1 treatment. I lost 40
pounds without trying. With the pain the past year I had gained 15. Again
the accupuncture helped me take it off and that is why I don't have the
pred gain I believe. IMPORTANT: I did not ask for weight loss treatment
form the accupuncturist - she just treated me for other issues and she
says it cleared my system and balanced it back to where I needed to be.

I take calcium and Omega 3

This is NOT preaching or telling anyone else what to do... just what has
worked for me in answer to Graham. I rarely talk about how I eat cause I
think people think I am the food police

BTW I am a caterer and make all the other stuff for other people!
pgr

Hi Graham!

 

Some days ago there was a posting about the best information about prednisone. I copy from that website http://www.gihealth.com/html/education/drugs/prednisone.html  :

Unless instructed otherwise, prednisone should be taken all at once with breakfast. Prednisone is not to be taken randomly during the day. This minimizes the risk of adrenal gland suppression and atrophy. (When high doses are required, the dose may have to be split between morning and evening doses for short periods of time.) In some patients prednisone can be given at twice the dose every other morning. This doesn't work for everyone, but when possible, allows your system a brief, yet helpful, reprieve from the drug.

Like Reni, I have understood that most people are taking all the pred in the morning - which I have always done.

I started in June 2005 on 20 mg a day and was then told that I may have problems falling asleep, so I got Imovane tablets (Zopiclone is another name). I used them in the beginning when I felt I needed more sleep, but now they are just a reserve. I was also told to take Calcichew D3 to protect me from osteroposis - D vitamins are important! In the beginning I also took Omeprazol to protect me from getting ulcer, but a year ago, I skipped that as my face got all red in the sun and I had no problems with ulcer etc.

When I started on prednisone in June 2005, I had lost 6 kg (13 lbs) and during the first year I didnīt gain any weight, but now I gain weight and I am almost back where I was before I started on prednisone. We eat salmon once a week and filet of chicken once a week, much fruit and vegetables but I also like a beefsteak. I like wine several days a weekwith the food and have no problem with that except that I may gain weight. I have had atrial fibrillation until 10 days ago when I had cardioversion, so I have had fatigue when I wanted tio take a walk. Now it is much better. I am male and turned 70 on the day when I had my cardioversion.

I look upon prednisone as a way to help me get rid of the pmr without severe pain, and I donīt fear the bad side effects. I am down to 3.0 mg a day after having tapered last week from 3,5. When on 5 mg I went too fast, and I had to go back up to 5. I have found that it is better not to go too fast. Let it take some time! It helps.

Good luck to-morrow.

Ragnar

Hi Graham, I admire your determination to beat this "thing"! I take the
prednisone in the morning about 6:00, 15 mg. Was diagnosed in March
and started at 20mg, went down to 10 and was so miserable had to go
back to 15. Went down to 12 (rheumy's orders) but had to go back to 15.
Right now I am reluctant to lower the dose. I also have osteoarthritis and
take a time released tylenol and tramadol for the pain of both the arthritis
and the PMR. At the moment have to take both. I know how important
exercize is so I walk a mile a day (slowly!) and go up and down the stairs
in my house often. Although was diagnosed in March I think I have had it
for more than a year, and have been wondering how far off the light at
the end of the tunne lis! I have found that hot packs that can be heated in
the microwave do help to relieve the pain. I am an artist, a printmaker,
haven't been able to work in the studio for 8 months, but I am
determined to get back to it. Good luck to you in getting back to your
much loved sporting life.

Libeth

I want to really thank Graham for starting this thread... I think it is really
helpful and interesting to learn more about everyone's regimen.!
pgr

Wow! guys - this just gets better and better.  Such great input, so much good information, so much support out there for us ALL!!!

So ........ first of all, thanks to you all for your super responses.  My regime will definately change thanks to all your observations.  My Pred will now be taken with breakfast - (Thinks .......do I miss tonight and suffer thro' the night so I can take them in the morning ??  I'll let you know !!)

(By the way have you noticed that 'Prednisone' is 'Prednisolone' in the UK)

My visit to the doctors helped (I think).  I have to say that I find them 'conservative' with information.  It almost has to be pumped out of them.  Seems to me that if you don't ask you don't get.  General, generic information should be given freely and willingly, which it is, but only when the direct question is asked.

However, it looks like I'll keep with the 15mg per day for another week then try to drop to 12.5 for two weeks and then slowly drop (hopefully 1 mg per fortnight) thereafter and see how low I can get the dose.  How does this sound folks ?

Being interested in sport I am sort of interested in 'the numbers' to see how things are progressing (or otherwise). So, (by request) I will be having a blood-test every two weeks.  Current/latest ESR was 41 - down from (80+) before starting the intake of Pred.  My next test will be next Tues (4/9) so results will be in on 6/9.  If the ESR is up then I'll be considering the diet again, if not then I'll be able to give a little more info. in that area.

Does anyone else have regular blood-tests and keep a close eye on their ESR ?

Libeth - the light at the end of the tunnel has to be 12 to 24 months from the onset of the PMR doesn't it?  We have to believe it - its happened for others so we have to believe it will work for us too.  Keep the faith.  I'm also a great believer in the concept of self-healing.  If we think we can heal ourselves then we have so much more chance of succeeding than if we just give in to it.  Deepak Chopra, Brandon Bays - have you read them ?

pgr555  Thanks for your kind words.  The more information we share the more chance we have of offering support and perhaps an iota of comfort for others in the forum.  Just one small item of info. might resonate with someone and help them change their regime for the better, give them hope, help them become more positive that this thing is transitory and can be looked back on rather than an indefinate fear into the future.

RDSwede Thanks for your observations - especially about lowering the dosage.  As you can see from the above I will be having a go at reducing in a couple of weeks time.

Sleep well guys - yours in health - Graham

Graham,
a thought for tonight... take 5 to get you through the night and 10 in the am
then try to make it to the next day? Or take Over the counter pain med
tonight and the 15 in the am
Let us know.
pgrGraham,

Mt rheumy tests my blood every 3 months, even though I think my PMR has burned itself out. My sed rate, however, has been hovering at around 44 for many months. Even while I was taking pred. and then plaquenil, it never got below 42. Maybe my sed rate is "normally" high? I don't know. It seems strange to me, as most of the others have said their sed rates have dropped dramatically after being on pred. I go again next month. At least my rheumy is okay with me not being on any meds now, as long as my sed rate stays below 60. I have not tried the diet, and though I've read lots of things that say the nightshade family of foods is bad for arthritis, I don't think I could do without tomatoes. Maybe I should tough it out and at least try going without for a month or so.

Keep up that positive attitude. That definitely has a lot to do with getting better.

Reni
I had a sed rate of 57 before pred... 12 on Aug 3rd will tesst every 3 months.

Hi Graham,
 I am in Sydney, am 56 and was diagnosed Dec 05. Was certainly not nearly  as athletic as  you, but walked for 2-3hrs once a week, walked shorter distances every day and have done at least 2 swim squads a week for over 20 years. We would swim ,at least, 2  1/2 kms  each session.

I was a casual community nurse and could just keep going, and my legs were my strongest point.

PMR, I think , was a slowish onset maybe over a month or two. One thing I think I have learned is that we all have PMR , we have good days, and we have s.... days. I have not read about anyone who has had this less than 2 years. Some manage well, and seem to be able to carry on, fairly well. Others, find working and general family stuff just too much.

Last month, I emailed rheumy and said I am fantastic. Cured I thought! Was on 3 mgm prednisilone and 25mgm Methotrxate imi weekly. My family was away for 3 weeks, no grandchildren sitting. Just taking it easy, even swim squads were off for 2 weeks.

Dropped to 2 1/2 mgm P. and I started 'hibernating 'again as I call it. Staying home, not  wanting to go out etc,  'cos of the pain. Back up to 4 , didn't touch me, then 5mgm. All prednisilone  in am.

My swimming has been my godsend. Even though some days i could only do 20 mins, it helped my moral to just have to go somewhere and try. Walking was really difficult, especially hills, but can now do an hour once or twice a week, and at a medium pace. My Iyengar Yoga teacher has been very understanding and helped me with props for the poses.

Use your meds, diet, acupuncture , massage, anything, that makes you feel, that you have some input into the outcome; because looking after your head with this, is really important.

I have heard it passes, and I have heard of a lady in her 60's who is stronger than before, but what is she measuring herself against?

Keep your chin up, and when you can not,   rest without guilt.

all the best   

Hi, all - Just to add my 2 cents worth - when I was first at 15 mg of prednisone, I used to take 10 in the am and 5 in the pm.  Worked fine.  I eat pretty much anything & everything, but am taking supplements: chromium picolinate (500 or 600 mcg daily), biotin (250 mcg), Recovery powder (1 tsp 2x per day), Omega 3-6-9, calcium (of course!), plus a multivitamin and garlic tablet every day (have been for years).  The chromium picolinate & biotin made the biggest difference in regulating my blood sugar - can't take it at the same time as the calcium, tho.

Have just returned from a long weekend "horse camping" - set up camp at a friend's ranch and rode our horses on mountainside trails - awesome!  I am now at 9 mg (was once as low as 4 mg, but started getting migrating inflammation in my wrists & fingers, which interfered with my computer work, so had to increase again), and get a little stiff now and then, but mostly feel pretty normal.  However, got mild laryngitis a couple of weeks ago and still hasn't gone away, so I will probably have to go see my doctor again to get it checked out.  Sometimes I take an Aleve if I'm feeling stiff.

BTW, I was diagnosed at age 55 in Feb/06, so it's been over 1 1/2 years for me so far.  I don't consider myself an athlete, but I am physically active: I ride several times a week (weather permitting), do my share of barn chores most days (we have 5 horses on the farm), and take the dog(s) for walks daily as well.  Still able to throw a 38 lb. saddle on my 15.2 hand mare!  I haven't gained any weight on prednisone, and my bone density is good.  I work 30 hours per week at a desk job.  That about covers it!

 

Hi Graham,

    I'm almost 75 but have been active all my life...used to run but have gone to walking for the sake of my knee and hip joints.  I keep busy doing all kinds of work on our house and 5 acres.

    Started out on 15mg., then about every 5 weeks or so, down 2.5.  Went on a couple of trips and kept my dosage up rather than try traveling on a newly reduced dosage.  Got down to 10mg O.K., with a minimum of pain...mostly in my hands.  Tried 7.5 and that was too big a jump, apparently.  Going back to ten for a few days and then down one mg each 30 days.  Hope that works.

     You'd be best with exercise that doesn't stress your shoulders and hips.  Easy swimming might be the answer, but walking is good too. I may be in a minority, but I feel I'm much weaker than I used to be.  Got down to do a pushup yesterday and found that between the pain in my hands and my weakness, couldn't do one!  I've got an exercise machine (weights on cables) I tried and it seemed to be O.K. with light weights, so I'm going to work out on it and build my muscles back up.

Hope my comments help.

Thanks again to you all for such informative and helpful input.  Each time I read one of your replies I get a little more information, a little bit more confident that I can have a go at changing a regime or perhaps attempt something on a slightly different time-scale.

Results from blood tests came in this morning and the ESR is going in the right direction which is pleasing.  In July it was 80+, August 41, this morning 19.  Something's going right !!

Have returned to the evening intake of Pred.  it seems to fit my lifestyle better than in the morning.  Down to 10 mg today but have an anti-inflammatory ready if the pain kicks in too hard.  If I can only get it under 10 mg (and have a bearable level of pain) my state-of-mind will improve enormously - its those side-effects that worry me.

Thanks for your input Bob and the tip of 1 mg drops each 30 days after I reach a constant 10 mg per day. Sounds good.

The easy swimming is where I'm at at the moment.  250 to 350 mtrs 5 times a week if I can.  Its hard to take things easy, especially on a 'good' day, but I'm slowly learning the lessons.  Taking it easy seems to be the only way to go because its just not worth the suffering the next day.  I had to help someone with some gardening last Wednesday, had to put in a new fridge in my own house on the Thursday and felt like ending it all on the Friday !!  Geez, this PMR hurts when you've over-taxed your body doesn't it ?!!!!!!!

Thanks again folk - keep the information flowing - we'll all benefit and its great to know that there's community support out there.

Rest easy - Graham

Hi Graham!

Are you seeing a regular MD or a reumatologist? MDs do not know much about this thing so you really must see a specialist.

I am one of the people here that is "cured" of PMR

Hey Marianna, How long have you been cured and how long were you ill?
What level of Pred did you start with and what did you end up with?

Libeth

Hi Libeth,

I had pmr for 2 years when I was 49.  It was so bad I wanted to die.It went away after starting at 30mg down to 0 in 2 years.

after 3 years of bliss it came back (very mild only in the AM a few hours of being stiff. )I refused to take pred and just lived with it. Than the hands and wrists got involved.I went to reumy after about 8 months of pain and he put me on plaquenel. Within 2 weeks all pain was gone .PMR plus the  hand and wrist pain (he thought the hand thing  might be RA) .The plaq gave me headaches and since I felt so good stopped the medication. This was 7-8 weeks ago. I feel great!

So....there is light at the end of the tunnel for PMR sufferers! I am living proof!

Hi Marianne, Thank you so much for your response, what a good start for
the day! You are the first one I have heard about that has actually made it
out of the tunnel. Stay well!!!



Libeth in the Skagit Valley

Marianne,  Congrats on getting rid of this nuisance.  I call it that because we can get relief from it and there's an end in sight, and there are many much more serious auto-immune diseases.  I have a niece with MS and I can't comprehend how she has managed it for 20 years.  Makes my troubles seem insignificant.

Graham, Your choice to take the pred at night shows that there is more than one way to fight the symptoms.  I understand the folks who say that the best way is all in the morning so that the body's adrenal gland is stimulated to work, but I've tried that way and would have to increase my dosage to be able to live with it.  I've tried taking the whole dailly dose of the pred at about 0300 with milk, since it would then kick in about the time I got up and would work most of the day very nicely.  But it's a real hassle to interfere with sleep any more than my old bladder requires, so I tried taking about 2/3 or 3/4 in the morning and 1/3 or 1/4 at bedtime, and that seems to work best and I have gone back to it.  That routine seems to keep at least a minimal level of pred in the system, whereas taking it all at once seemed to leave my system completely on empty by the time the next dose was due and it would take 4 or 5 hours after taking the next dose for the pain and stiffness to subside.  Guess the best motto is: Whatever Works!

Wonderful responses - thanks again folk.

Marianne. Currently going to a practice with two MD's both of whom seem to have opposing ideas about the treatment of PMR.  What chance does anyone have when the two 'experts' can't talk to each other and come up with a united front ?!!

Did go to a Rheum. consultant in the early days just to ratify the diagnosis of PMR.  He was good, knew what he was talking about and gave me confidence.  He suggested Pred. but left the decision of when to start (and how much to take) to me. Its really why I came to this forum in the first place - just to talk with people who knew what was happening and how to deal with 'the nuisance'.

Great to know you're cured.  Great to be able to talk to someone who has been there and come through it.  I have no doubt in my mind that I will be through this in the shortest possible time. This thing crept up on me but bit me hard at the end of May this year.  I stuck with the pain but tried all sorts to avoid the Pred.  i.e. colonic irrigation, accupuncture, vegan (+fish) diet, nutritional supplements 'til I rattled (still taking them), healers, (x3), blood tests to regularly check ESR.  

By the end of July I had to give in and went on the Pred.  5mg, then 10, then 15.  Five days ago (Tuesday) I had a bad one and did a 30 mg Pred 'hit',  Wednesday was great, so Thurs. it was down to 15, Frid it was 12.5 and today it was 10 mg.  I now it sounds rash and too fast but I still feel great.  There's pain there but it feels like its almost gone.  I can feel myself getting better.

If this goes on for another two or three days its down to 9mg for a week and down 1mg each week thereafter until I'm at 5 or less.

Why has it suddenly come good ?  I don't know.  I do have an element of faith in the fact that I am going strong on the supplements.  Not cheap by any means but if I can give my body the strongest possible base from which to recover and build/strengthen the immune system then I feel it will work. If I maintain this good period and I can relate it to the diet/supplements then I'll let you guys have more details.

I still have other 'things' planned for the future treatment of myself and as that comes through I'll let you all know about that too.

Keep the faith guys - Graham

Hi - anyone out there ? Hey Graham,