OK, I know I'm posting a lot of antibiotic info today but I'm in a bit of a jam and want to know if anybody is feeling "google lucky" today.
I have a friend with a bad form of depression. Nothing has worked. She's tried all the meds, the 'new' electroshock, behavior modiification, etc. The shrinks have run out of options so it's now 'all in her head'. We know that's not true - how many of us have heard that song and dance before.
A few months ago, during the move, things got really bad for her. I did a preliminary search and hit some studies. One was something like "when all else fails and nothing else works, try Minocin". So, I posted on the RB and got some replies that Minocin does indeed work for 'mental illness' but was unable to get any studies to cite.
She needs help now. A lot. And has a doc that might help if she can find some studies to back this up.
I am hitting wall after wall.
Anybody want to give a try? Can everybody in the world figure out Pub Med better than I?
Please?
Pip
I know what you are talking about as far as the post i have read them all today. This is off subject but a son of mine and two brothers had problems with depression and zyprexa at a higher dose helped. That is a medication that has been a big help in my family. The 20mg dose did my son no good but at 30mg it was a miracal. I am glad your friend has you to fight for her. Keep looking. And God Speed to finding your answers. Sometimes they need to try to get the dose right before switching to another drug. And some drugs and switching to much can cause more harm than good. Pip, sorry beyond me. Have you tried an advance search on Google? And try to get her or take her to a 12-step meeting, asap. CathyI tired to find something. Sorry, was, unsucessful.Thanks - but she's been on all the drugs and all the dosages. The docs just gave up.
The one study I'm trying to find was something about homeless and non-compliant about meds.
Damn, you'd think I'd know better about copying the article and sending it to myself so I can find the darn thing again.
Cathy - 12 step? She doesn't drink or do drugs. Way counter to medical history.
If anybody stumbles upon anything - please post/PM me.
Hugs,
Pip
12 step programs work for people with depression also. To be around people that have something in comon with you and you are not alone in your problem helps with everything including RA. They have special programs for people with deppression.Hi Pip, are you and the medical professionals confidant that she's taking her meds as prescribed and is compliant? In some instances, it's a compliant issue and it turns out to be a complex mental illness along with depression or several illnesses. Also, has she had a second or even a third opinion?
I'll do a search and see if I come up with anything. Lindy
Pip, can we get a bit more info about her?? How long she's had it, what meds she's tried, what side effects she's had, other illnesses, history, etc etc.Pip, I did a quick GOOGLE, go to:
www.healthyplace.com/communities/bipolar/treatment/complianc e
Not exactly what you wanted but some good info about non compliance. Also, did search on Minocin, depression and came up with many hits. I reviewed the first 5 pages and found nothing positive. All about side effects. Lindy
Milly, thanks for posting my reply to Pip! LOL You are absolutely right, and a 12-step program is very helpful for depression. It worked for me. Good luck to your friend Pip! CathyYes it was more of a change in doctors that helped my son than a change in medication. She had a better repore with my son also so he tryed the higher dose. The other doctors gave up. and one of my brothers bless his heart he has a border line iq and so sweet. And he just out of the blue his meds quit working. We had to put him in the hospitalShe's battled this I think since she was 17.
She's had gallbladder problems, kidney stones, reoccuring UTI's, all pretty common with myco infections.
She's really intelligent - smart as a whip - and knows a lot about her illness. I'm pretty sure she's compliant. She knew all the differences in how the meds worked. There was a point she was expaining the difference between SSRI's and this other class of drugs. Kind of like us - we know a lot about RA and our different choices. I know didley-squat about what she's dealing with.
I know Paxil didn't work, nor did a couple more she named. But for the life of me I don't know what they were.
I'm pretty sure she's seeing a bunch of docs. She's been admitted a couple of times this year alone. She had to quit her job and is applying for diability.
I feel like a moron because I don't know where to look for info. I know I saw that one stupid study before and thought there were a bunch more - but like LinB said - most of the stuff is about adverse reactions, teeth, MIL, not the psych studies.
A friend just PMed me and suggested a different resource so I'm gonna try that too. But that might take a few more days.
I sent my girlfriend an email earlier today on what little I did find. If she answers back, I'm going to ask for a history and diagnosis and meds and see if she'll let me post more info.
And Allycat - I'm sending your natural suggestions too.
Hugs,
Pip
< =text/>_popupControl(); Pip...so sorry to hear about your friend. I tried many search engines but came up with nothing for treating depression with minocin or any other antibiotic. Basically all I came up with is that depression could be a side effect of an antibiotic. I guess if you wanted to treat depression with an antibiotic...you would have to find one that doesn't cause that side effect. My basic understanding of depression is a chemical imbalance in the brain is the USUAL cause of depression. That could possibly come from an infection and once the infection is cleared up the depression is too. I guess it wouldn't hurt to try the minocin but please do not get your hopes up too high that this would be the miracle cure all for her depression.
I really liked the suggestion in the change of doctors also. Besides there being a chemical imbalance...there are most likely other outside life influences also causing this severe depression. It could be something very traumatic from her past that she just needs some help to deal with. I went thru this with Danny and he really has come out of it with meds and some other help.
You are a wonderful and caring friend Pip and I wish your friend all the best and I really hope she can get this resolved so she can be happy and know what it is like to be happy.
Exercise, omega-3 EFA's (fish oil, flax oil, etc), sunlight... three safe and effective antidepressants. In addition cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) can be as effective as chemical antidepressants, and can induce the same changes in the brain as antidepressant medication.All, and especially GS -
All I have to work with is ancedotal evidence. There have been a lot of posts on the RB about Mino helping with depression, bipolar etc. I've seen research before on Alzheimers and Schizophrenia. Today I found some links to autism. Basically, if the work about RA is 'cutting edge' the work on mental illnesses is 'bleeding edge'.
Some of the reseach says Minocin is one of the few drugs out there that cross the blood brain barrier.
This being said - my friend is one of the only people I'd suggest this too. We've had long discussions on this. I am NOT willing for her to do this on her own. She needs to have a doctor on board. Period. For us - I might take a waiver. But not for her.
Here's my thinking. Yes, there were a lot of posts about depression being a side effect of Minocin. Frankly, I was STUNNED! Most people report the first thing to lift is the depression and fatigue. So, I was wondering if this is another scare tactic - kind of like the Minocin-induced-lupus thing. It happens; but what's the ratio? Get my drift.
However - as far as I know, I'm the only person I've ever seen post about GETTING DEPRESSED on Mino. That was my 'herx'. I mean, sad, weepy, tears coursing down my face. For nothing. And it scared me. My hubby was the one who noticed it was 'dose related' and if he didn't I don't know how long I could have lasted. It lifted after 7 1/2 weeks.
So she can't do this alone. The posts on the RB said people should maintain on their regular meds for about 2 years. By then the Mino's in control. Then they slowly wean off and maintain on the Mino. Like us, it's not a 'cure' - it's just a lesser med.
Pip
< =text/>_popupControl(); It is kinda amazing and scary at the same time how any medication can affect our physiology and chemistry.
Who knows if this is another scare tactic? Can't find any studies really about it!!!
Yeah..you really need to have a doc onboard with this. Hopefully you can find one. I know it helps to go in armed with studies and research and the like...but if this is something you truly believe that you want to try with her...you may only be going in armed with yourself and what it did for you. What can the doc say? The worst that a doc can say is NO. The best a doc can say is well...let's look it into and let me check some things out.
Pip, I am so sorry to hear about your friend, and I have to say what a wonderful friend you are to try to find a solution for her. All of us need true friends like that!
The one thing I am left wondering after your discussion, is has your friend been receiving counseling and therapy in addition to her medication trials? Perhaps there is something that she has "buried" and is not dealing with that is depressing her. The medication can only deal with chemical issues, not psychological issues.
My very best wishes for health and happiness to you and your friend.
Pip, I'd be very careful about recommending Minocin to your friend, especially based on any of the many pages of hits that we found. I'd only mention it, when and if I had the research studies in hand that show that Minocin has a positive effect on depression. She could show these studies to her doctors and ask if they would obtain the protocol and start her on treatment. This is tangible evidence. Because of all of the hits about depression and Minocin I'm not sure that her doctor would start her on it.
I don't think it's a scare tactic and if so by which entities? Just because they're about Minocin doesn't mean that they aren't based in factual information and/or science. I take side effects about drugs seriously, as we all should.
Is your friend bi polar? Does she have family support? Has she ongoing psychiatric treatment/therapy? I agree that the 12 step program is a good place to start for mild, situational depression. As you know depression comes in many disguises and levels of seriousness. It's also caused by many personal situations. In some cases one medication isn't enough. There are combinations that have been successful in conjunction with ongoing psychiatric treatment for severe cases of depression.
I too had a friend who was seriously depressed in her late teens. She put herself through multiple suicide attempts and I seemed to be the one she called each time. She's now 61 years old and is still fighting the disease. It's difficult for everyone involved and I can't imagine what it must be like for our friends who are suffering with ongoing depression. Stay by her and support her but be careful. I've been there. Lindy
Sorry Lin, guess I didn't make sense there.
What I was trying to say is...those of us on AP know about the possibility on MIL. It's on all the pharmacy print outs. If you watch the RB or other AP boards, you see the chances are really low that it will happen. When it does happen, oddly, it's usually a few years into the treatment. You'd think it would be much sooner if it were truly an 'allergy' to the med.
There's a few of us that believe the MIL is a 'herx'. NOBODY would say stay on Mino; the usual response is change to Doxy or another antibiotic. However, from my research, even before starting AP, I thought it was a 'herx' - something to work thru until the microbes are gone. It's what I was planning to do when the pneumonia came back - a lot of docs say "Minocin-Induced-Pneumonitis" but I just don't see it that way - I saw it as a herx to be worked thru. Kind of 'lower the dose' and 'cough my lungs out'. Heck, I'm still planning that - a statistical study of 1 - for the next attempt the buggers are going to make against my lungs. LOL
So, as you we saw from the 'depression and minocin' links - most say it's from people that newly started on the equivalent of AP. To me that definitely screams herx. Been there. Done that. It goes away and the sun is shining and...get my drift. But, if you didn't know what to expect, or you were way sensitive to the med...it could get ugly.
That's why I think she needs to be watched. And start low, take it slow and slooooowly work her way up. That study I saw was something about homeless people...and if all else fails, try antibiotics.
Hillhoney - she has a therapist too.
Jasmine - I'll use those suggestions too.
Pip
I see what you are saying,Pip. That depression from AP may be a short lived side effect. However, if you friend is already depressed the point of maybe needing disability, even a slight worsening in her condition could be too much for her to handle. I agree that she may have some underlying trama that is contributing to her illness. In this case, no drug will work until she has uncovered and delt with the trama.Alright Pip, I'm gonna throw a buncha stuff out here, I have no idea what she's tried, or what you've found and suggested. These are all just about non-medication type treatments for MAJOR depression. Perhaps a big big combo of things (meds, non-med stuff, therapy, etc etc) is called for with her??
Here's the links:
http://www.namiscc.org/Recovery/2002/NonDrugDepressionTreatm ents.htm
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/depression/compl ete-publication.shtml#pub5
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=1 3049&cn=5
Man, I had more and I have no idea what happened to them. Grrr....
Really, I just ended up with more questions for you. At this point, I am thinking she needs another doctor. You can combine so many different types of meds for severe depression, and I'm wondering if that's been done for her or not. I'll post the rest of the links when I find them!
http://www.mentalhealth.com/book/p40-dp01.html
Pip I found this but couldnt get any solid info on minocin and depression.
I hope you find something and your friend will appreciate all your help
Take care
Lisa
http://www.clinical-depression.co.uk/Treating_Depression/tre ating.htm
Sorry I wanted to add this too
Having had some depression in my life I have to say that all the medicine in the world won't help until the person can get to the root of the problem. Sometimes it takes a different therapist. Maybe hypnosis? Sometimes there are things from our past tucked way back in our minds.
I also have to agree about the suggestion of excercise. Even if it is a short walk each day. In order to get better, you have to WANT to get better. Does that make sense?
You guts are so wonderfu! Truly, I'm so glad to have found you all.
Caprice - that's EXACTLY what I'm worried about.
Katie and Pin - thanks for the links; I'm going over them before I call her this morning.
RANana - I'm going to see if she's switched docs in the past. Thanks about the exercise.
So, last night as I kept searching, most of the links I found were saying some interesting things.
Lots on depression onset after pregnancy, psychosis may or may not develop after Accutane (homone link?) and most antidepressents are counterindicated with Antibiotics. No kidding, I found list after list. Oh, she could also have Lyme.
So I went back to that one summary article I read before that summed up all my AP research and reread it for anything to do with 'mental illness' or brain illness.
http://www.anapsid.org/cnd/diffdx/bacterialink.html
You know, I think it's all autoimmune. All of it. Now who's going to listen to me? Nobody.
Pip
Omega-3's as Antidepressant in
Pregnancy:
A Case Report
(letter) Chiu CC, Huang SY, Shen WW, Su KP Omega-3 fatty acids for depression in pregnancy. Am J Psychiatry. 2003 Feb;160(2):385
This is the story of a woman in China who had a previous depression during pregnancy, lasting 9 months after the pregnancy, and finally then recovering -- without medication treatment. Then she had two more episodes of depression while not pregnant, which responded to paroxetine (Paxil in the U.S.).
But when she became depressed during another pregnancy, she did not want to take medications for fear that they might harm her baby. So, these doctors offered her the Omega-3 option, as they had been studying this approach in other patients (see the Omega-3 table: Su, 2003).
The dose was 4 g of ethyl eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and 2 g of docosahexanoic acid (DHA) per day. Note that if you were taking a 1-gram fish oil capsule containg a total of 250 mg of Omega-3's (e.g. Costco's Kirkland brand), you would have to take 24 capsules per day to get this dose. Burp.
She did not improve until the 4th week of this treatment, when her depression score (HAM-D) went from 29 to 18. By week 6 her score was 10, and she reached "remission" -- a depression score of 7 -- by the 10th week.
Was it really the omega-3's that did this? The doctors concluded yes:
Since the patient received regular follow-up for 6 weeks before treatment with omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids, it is unlikely that the remarkable improvement was due to the clinical attention of regular visits. Because the patient had a depressive episode during her first pregnancy and after childbirth, we do not think that she had a spontaneous remission from this episode.
In their conclusion, the doctors wonder whether the developing fetus might actually take omega-3's from mother, lowering her levels, and making her more susceptible to depression (numbers in parentheses are in their letter's references):
Reduced maternal DHA status after the second trimester (4) is associated with a high demand from the developing fetus for the rapid formation of its brain. Empirical studies of polyunsaturated fatty acids in the tissues (5), data from epidemiologic surveys (6), and results of therapeutic trials of polyunsaturated fatty acids (1) suggest that a deficit in omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids might cause major depressive disorder (7, 8). Supplementation with omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids is thought to have protective effects for pregnancy outcome in high-risk pregnancy (2).
Hey guys,
I spoke to my friend last night and gave her the link to here. She's going to get back to me.
Hugs for all your help.
Pip