Also, does anybody see what I see - I don't see remission.  How do they come up with remission?  The numbers are only showing 38% show a 50% improvement and 61% show a 20% improvement.  Buried in the launguage is 70ARC of 21% - but all of the results are this Actemra WITH other DMARDS. 

So...are people on these drugs considered 'in remission' at a 50% improvement?  This doesn't make sense.

Pip

Acterma is a new biologic that attacks Il-6 (interlukin 6).  Kineret is the other interlukin antagonist but it goes after IL-1

It gave the stats for the ARC scores but this press release drew the remission headline from the Disease Activity score decrease however the numbers were not broken down.

I'll say it for you Pip...never draw real conclusions from a headline or a press release...follow the source and find the real studies

Hey, Peeps?  What is this drug?  Sorry to be so dense but...

Also, does anybody see what I see - I don't see remission.  How do they come up with remission?  The numbers are only showing 38% show a 50% improvement and 61% show a 20% improvement.  Buried in the launguage is 70ARC of 21% - but all of the results are this Actemra WITH other DMARDS. 

So...are people on these drugs considered 'in remission' at a 50% improvement?  This doesn't make sense.

Pip

Thanks, Buckyeye!  My bad!  You know I should have caught that!

Phew!  That makes me feel better!  I did a quick search and the study itself isn't out yet, but a bunch of press releases are.  It is interesting that the numbers change a bit in the PR pieces - not by much, but enough to go...who's writing this stuff?

That being said - the ACR press release comes out on Saturday so that should be a bit more info.  Hopefully you or somebody here can post it.  I'd still like more numbers. 

But my question remains - do the other DMARD's have different criteria for 'remission' than I have assumed in the past?  We've all seen the posts - less than 5 minutes of morning stiffness etc.  Are they using a different scale?  Does anybody know?

Pip

I know - we all do.  What I'm trying to figure out is the 'definitions'.  On another site I recently saw some 'remission' studies - but I haven't read them or I'd have posted them here.  LOL

Ya got to admit - from what's printed above - they're saying remission - but the numbers aren't showing that.  How are they coming up with that?

I think I'm obsessed with remission.

:-)

Pip

I posted this not because of it's great benifits but just to let everyone know that there is another medicine to add to the mix. As most people know, some meds work for some and some meds don't. Some meds quit working after time and so more meds equals more chances for relief. This certainly isn't the smoking bullet that we are waiting for. I figure it to be right about 2-3 years time max.

Pip and Gimpy, this isn't AP therapy and no matter what, even if it were the smoking bullet, you would not be able to say anything good about it and you would spend precious time finding anything you could to discredit the drug. I take biologics, and you know what? I take absolutely no pain medicine and i continue to function better all of the time. Why mention marijauna in your quote but not give good credit to the good drugs that are helping you to feel good rather than "those no fun drugs". Those "no fun drugs" that you rag on are helping you to live a good life, shouldn't you show them the same respect as the AP? Of course it is just my opinion I guess that you shoud give good credit to where good credit is due or quit tking them.

LEV

Lev,

I really am getting tired of repeating myself.  I do not dislike the biologics, I am AFRAID of them.

That being said, I have also said the should AP fail me, I will use a biologic.  I do not intend to spend the rest of my life in the excruciating pain of PRA. 

I have not studied the biologics as, as of now, I don't need to know about them.  That does not mean that when somebody posts something about them, I do not try to interpret the data for the future.

In this case, I do not understand the use of the work 'remission' in this context.  I assumed from the posts I've read here that peoples lab numbers return to normal.  APer's labs return to normal and that's when they are considered in remission.  I also assumed that was required for a 'remission' on the biologics. 

I have noticed posts that say, "I'm in remission and I don't feel so hot".  If the study above is correct and they consider remission with those ACR20, 50 and 70 indexes - then no wonder somebody can say they are 'in remission' and 'feel bad'.

Therefore - I am totally confused.  Are you telling me that there are different diagnostic criteria for the different 'theories' of RA and the different 'responses' to the drugs.

That makes no sense.

Also - if anybody on the Biologics keeps their labs - would you post and tell me what you think of all this.  I'd truly appreciate it.

Pip

Hey Gimpy,

How ironic that you have a picture of me in your head. I too have a picture of you, wish i were an artist. I picture you as somewhat thin with a pouchy belly, scraggly grey semi-long hair, sitting in your favorite chair with all the doors and windows locked wearing a tee shirt with a picture of a radical muslem beheading an american soldier and the words "Getting What He Deserves" written underneath. I see you smoking a joint with a glass of wine on the computer table next to the chair that you are very seldom get out of while your higher than a kite grandchild puts his hand down the spinning garbage disposal, go figure.

No Gimpy, I don't know what "flogging a dead donkey" means, must be a Canadien thing, we don't do that in this country.

LEV

Does anyone remember the tv show called Moonlighting?  Bruce Willis and Cybil Shepherd were the two main characters and they were ALWAYS bickering back and forth.  Anyway, it turned out they were in luuuuuvvvvve

It sort of made me think of Gimpy and Lev, how they're always bickering, seeming to not be able to get along. Maybe theirs something smoldering just below the surface.  Maybe it's a little sumthin called luvThat's funny, Linncn, I was thinking it was you and LevLarry that had something going! I would offer to fight you for him but I already have someone to love, so you can have him. You two seem made for each other, after all.

Oh, don't get all bent Gimpy.  I was just teasing.  Besides, it's not like no one ever said that opposites attract ya know.

Ouch!

OK, I'm siding with Linncn here - she was just funning!

Pip

And I loved that show.  Unfortunately it's why Bruce Willis ended up with the Die Hard franchise.

Sigh,

Pip

I loved it too.  they wew so funny together.  Do you dever watch Gilmore Girls?  Kinda reminds me of it.

And yes, I was just trying to have fun with Gimpy. 

Pip don't be picking on my John Mclain. Just kidding PIP. LOL I don't know Pip you may end up being my favorite super hero before it is all said and done. You seem so genuinly concerned about me and i am sure everyone else. And i love all of you help and advise you give me. How are you doing PIP? I hope you are doing well.

Doing laundry!  Trying to get the house cleaned so we can take a little break around here!

You know, years and years ago, I ended up taking a class at UCLA for giggles on something to do with film.  Don't remember much about it but one of the guest dudes was the producer on Die Hard and he was explaining why they had a marketing nightmare on there hands.  It seems none of the other 'action heroes' wanted the part so they hired Bruce Willis - and the movie was about to tank.  The reason - everybody loved the movie - but nobody wanted to see Bruce Willis in the part.  If they could drag people into a screening, they loved it, they just couldn't get them in if they said "Bruce Willis". 

Pip

All I remember is the top dog dude was freaked!  He's was like, we have this winner, and we can't prove it.  LOL  Then he went in about opening small and building word of mouth.  I guess he knew what he was talking about.  :-0

I liked the part where his wife smacked the journalist!

Pip

Pip,

Hey girl!  Your question about remission is a valid one.   I found a definition of DAS28 (Disease Activity Score using 28 joint count) on a site which was selling a calculator for DAS28.   Their definition is as follows...

The DAS28 method is a worldwide-accepted way of measuring the severity of a  case of rheumatism. DAS stands for Disease Activity Score and 28 for the number of joints monitored by a rheumatologist to establish the level of swelling and tenderness.
The following variables are used in a calculation for establishing the state of rheumatism on a scale of 1 to 10.
TEN28 = 28 joint count for tenderness (scale 1 - 10)
SW28 = 28 joint count for swelling (scale 1 - 10)
Ln ESR = natural logarithm of Westergreen’s Erythrocyte Sedimentation rate (scale 1 - 10)

GH = General Health or patient’s global assessment of disease activity on visual analogue Scale of 100mm (scale 0 - 100)

From what I can find on the internet the DAS28 was developed to be used by rheumatologist to decide whether it is necessary to increase the dose of biologic agents.

A DAS28 score of 3.2 or higher is defined a moderate to high disease activity.  This study demonstated a DAS28 of less than 2.61.   These parameters are defined in the article as well.

Just wanted to address your question.

Later

Marybeth

I dont post much here, I belong to another board, but I just wanted to say that LevLarry is always posting articles about ra to help us, for me they are very informative.  I say whatever therapy works for you, use it and I am thrilled if it works and you have no pain!  This disease sucks big time, I have had RA now for 17 years this month and I wouldnt wish it on my worst enemy.  Now I have added gout to the mix and that also is no picnic.

I guess what I am trying to say is take the post for what it is, more information to help us, all this fighting does nothing but cause stress which is terrible for all of us!

Have a great day all, I am writing to you from Croatia, it is a beautiful day here, the sky is a magnificent shade of blue

Oh, Dalmatinka, this isn't really fighting.  You should see us when we get our panties in a bunch! 

Welcome to the board and great about posting from Croatia.  Are you vacationing there or are you from there!  Can you post pictures?  Not that I'd be able to figure out how to do that but...one can always hope.  I always wanted to travel and am married to a couch potato so...it's not going to happen.

Marybeth - So, from the information you found, they are using the term 'remission' as an 'improvement', not as actual 'remission'?  Did the scale you find show any numbers for 'remission' like I think about it?  Can you post the link?

Pip

Edited because I didn't know who I was posting too.  Sheesh!

Passive agressive hositility against you??  Wow, you called that so wrong.  Please don't psycho-analyze me.  Sometimes kidding around is really just kidding around.  I didn't know that you are so sensitive.  Will not try to joke with you from here on.  I didn't mean to upset you.  Sorry.  Really.

GoGo -

You know I admire the heck out of you and think you're the cats' pajama's.  And I do agree that Lev heaps tons of abuse on you that he'd be afraid to do if we all knew is real name.  Frankly, I think he's a bully - and we see a lot of that on these BB's. 

That being said, what I interpreted is Linda trying to change the tone of the thread.  Somebody else backed Lev up, I believe, yet another jab.

I did not interpret her joke as anything but a joke.  Not only do you have a hottie - you could do better than Lev in SOOOOO many ways.  Nobody thought she was serious.  Possibly you're still angry/hurt by his relentless attacks.

Of course, when he starts in on me again, you could possibly cut and paste this comment.

Hugs,

Pip

And let's be totally honest here.  Lev and Blessed are the perfect couple.

Pip

I would also like to make the point that that was not a slam at either one of you.

Gimpy and Pip,

This is my post. All I said is that it is my opinion that if a person is going to rag on a drug, don't take it. Yous are trying to convince people that AP therapy is the new RA miracle cure. Gimpy you don't mind advertising every single angle of AP therapy but to actually function without much pain, you have to do the "not so fun drugs" and i just think that you should either give credit where credit is due or quit taking them and then tell everybody how well the ap is working, that will give you better credibility. You can't take your ap and not the other drugs, don't rag on them and don't try to make it like you are in good shape because of the ap, you aren't, there is no proof that the ap is doing you any good. When you quit the "not so fun drugs" and only ap is keeping you funtional, then rag on the drugs that are very surely doing what they are supposed to do and then honestly tell us that the ap keeps you funtional, not the other way around.

If you and Pip posted honesty honestly, you wouldn't be cryng like little spoiled brats.

LEV

Ok, you little creep.  I noticed you're a homey.  Let's throw down when I'm in MI for the Holidays.  I'll bet I and my fake AP could kick your butt from here to Sunday!

Pip the APer v Lev the Moron!

Pip

OK!!  I'll get a whistle.  it'll be fun.

Innkeeper?

Is it too much for a Manson and Alice fan? 

By the way, why just ask me?

Are you picking on me?

Have you ever read some of your previous posts?

Some professionals would say

"Only a sick person would post such stuff."

But that is between you and your professional