Is the sky falling ? OT | Arthritis Information

 

 

 

 

 

Ah, such a thoughtful, intelligent critical analysis of the debates.  [QUOTE=Joie] You know this thread was originally a debate about the debate.  And then, as if the subject of politics wasn't contentious enough, the discussion turned when religion was interjected into the thread with the following comment: 











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Audrey:
I guess what I don't understand about this is from how I understand it..... that the coming of the anti-Christ as prophesized in the book of revelations is one of the prerequisites that has to occur for the second coming of Christ. this prophesy as I understand is Gods will, the way it will be.   So are you saying that christian fundamentalist republicans can vote the anti-Christ out of office? Wouldn't you be thwarting Gods will?   If you believe in the prophesies of Revelations, what is it that you are worried about? Won't you and everyone else that has accepted Jesus Christ as your personal saviour be raptured off to heaven? One would think that you would be excited about the fulfillment of your prophesy and the prospect of impending accent to heaven. Can you explain this contradiction to me? I'm trying to understand where you are coming from.Some of us think the Book of Revelations is not to be interpreted literally Obama was horrible during the debate!  He looked like a bumbling fool.  I thought McCain did great!Yes Jas and some of you are rational humans who have adopted Christianity as your faith and practice to the best of your abilities with no agenda. Other than nurturing it as your own personal faith. As is your right as an American. But tomorrow morning, a coalition of churches nationwide intend to violate the laws of this land by backing political candidates and agendas from the pulpit. This violates the terms of their tax exempt status. To me, this is yet another sign of an attempt to move this country into a Christian Theocracy. Those people need to know that I and millions of others will not live peacefully under anyones Theocracy. That is why it is important for people of all faiths like you and people of no faith like me to support the constitution of the United States. That framework is what allows us all to live and let live. I appreciate and respect your faith and your willingness to practice it side by side with others that differ. And I will stand up beside you and fight to the death for your right to practice your faith. But I do not appreciate fanatics of any stripe and will not stand idly by while they force their faith on me or my children in our secular public schools. [QUOTE=lorster]Yes Jas and some of you are rational humans who have adopted Christianity as your faith and practice to the best of your abilities with no agenda. Other than nurturing it as your own personal faith. As is your right as an American. But tomorrow morning, a coalition of churches nationwide intend to violate the laws of this land by backing political candidates and agendas from the pulpit. This violates the terms of their tax exempt status. To me, this is yet another sign of an attempt to move this country into a Christian Theocracy. Those people need to know that I and millions of others will not live peacefully under anyones Theocracy. That is why it is important for people of all faiths like you and people of no faith like me to support the constitution of the United States. That framework is what allows us all to live and let live. I appreciate and respect your faith and your willingness to practice it side by side with others that differ. And I will stand up beside you and fight to the death for your right to practice your faith. But I do not appreciate fanatics of any stripe and will not stand idly by while they force their faith on me or my children in our secular public schools. [/QUOTE]

And there is also a group of churches who are publicly denouncing this unholy coalition.  The coalition does not speak for all churches or all christian folks.  Hell, they don't even speak for a majority of us.
[QUOTE=lorster] But tomorrow morning, a coalition of churches nationwide intend to violate the laws of this land by backing political candidates and agendas from the pulpit. This violates the terms of their tax exempt status. To me, this is yet another sign of an attempt to move this country into a Christian Theocracy. . [/QUOTE]

In the South, this is known as "getting out the vote" and involves cash paid to preachers to give voting orders from the pulpit.  When you see a candidate carry 96-99% of a precinct, you know it is effective.   The agenda is all about money.
[QUOTE=Suzanne] [QUOTE=lorster] But tomorrow morning, a coalition of churches nationwide intend to violate the laws of this land by backing political candidates and agendas from the pulpit. This violates the terms of their tax exempt status. To me, this is yet another sign of an attempt to move this country into a Christian Theocracy. . [/QUOTE]

In the South, this is known as "getting out the vote" and involves cash paid to preachers to give voting orders from the pulpit.  When you see a candidate carry 96-99% of a precinct, you know it is effective.   The agenda is all about money.
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It's not just a southern thing - it's rampant in some churches in the Chicago area as well.
The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today... is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is simply what an unbelieving world finds unbelievable.

-dc talk
carolinagirl2008-09-27 12:34:21I've never been instructed on how to vote by anbody, church or elsewhere.  The closest I've seen to a Christian organization doing that is say, Focus on the Family will send out a record of the candidate's voting history so people can really know where the candidates stand on the issues.  I don't think their is anything wrong with that though.  I don't doubt that some preachers do tell their congregations who to vote for though.  I think it's alarming that their are grown adults who prefer to let someone else do their thinking for them.  I also think that if these churches are willfully breaking the law of our society, the should be willing to suffer the consequences of doing so.  So why is their tax exempt status not revoked if they are blatently violating that law? I've never been instructed as to who to vote for either....and I've also been involved in small Southern town get out the vote efforts for many years. No one is forcing anyone to vote for anyone there either. Yes; they make phone calls....pass out signs.....knock on doors and spread the work of their preferable candidate. If any pastor voices his opinion on which candidate they prefer and other's who admire him want to vote that way because they may admire and respect their judgement; so be it. Not just Southern Republicans do that.....ALL politicians and those that seek to get them elected or re-elected do it. There are churches in my area who demand money from political candidates in exchange for their churchmembers' votes.  The preacher will instruct his flock who to vote for, during Sunday services.  But the elected officials who benefit from this are certainly not going to blow the whistle on their easy ticket to office!

Very frustrating.
[QUOTE=JasmineRain]There are churches in my area who demand money from political candidates in exchange for their churchmembers' votes.  The preacher will instruct his flock who to vote for, during Sunday services.  But the elected officials who benefit from this are certainly not going to blow the whistle on their easy ticket to office!

Very frustrating.
[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=AchingAudrey][QUOTE=JasmineRain]There are churches in my area who demand money from political candidates in exchange for their churchmembers' votes.  The preacher will instruct his flock who to vote for, during Sunday services.  But the elected officials who benefit from this are certainly not going to blow the whistle on their easy ticket to office!

Very frustrating.
[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=AchingAudrey]

It must be isolated incidents because I've never heard of this happening anywhere I have lived.  But if I trust my church leaders I would certainly give some weight to what they tell me, I may not agree, I may not do it, but I would listen and ponder it and if I agreed with them I would probably help spread the word.

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If I found out my church elders had told the congregation (1) how to vote and (2) took a payoff to do so, I would do everything in my power to make sure they lost their tax-exempt status and were prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
[QUOTE=JasmineRain] If I found out my church elders had told the congregation (1) how to vote and (2) took a payoff to do so, I would do everything in my power to make sure they lost their tax-exempt status and were prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=AchingAudrey][QUOTE=JasmineRain] If I found out my church elders had told the congregation (1) how to vote and (2) took a payoff to do so, I would do everything in my power to make sure they lost their tax-exempt status and were prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
[/QUOTE] There's a lot worse things going on in the world today than a church breaching tax exempt status...lol [QUOTE=AchingAudrey]There's a lot worse things going on in the world today than a church breaching tax exempt status...lol[/QUOTE]

That's a bit like saying you should ignore the idiots who "just" run stop signs because there are also car thieves in town.
I am thinking Oprah should run for president. She is pretty good at managing money. Yes this finacial crisis has effected everyone. [QUOTE=Lovie]. Not just Southern Republicans do that.....ALL politicians and those that seek to get them elected or re-elected do it. [/QUOTE] I have seen the "voting" picks that are handed out at a very large Baptist Church every election cycle.  It is a guide on who to vote for after they sent out questionnaires to all the candidates.  Not one Democrat was on the "vote for" list.  But there was no coercion or money winnings, but its still wrong for because of their tax-exempt status.  But no one every does anything about it.  Perhaps its time to start demanding our elected officials spend 0,000,000,000 on enforcing this law.  [QUOTE=justsaynoemore]I have seen the "voting" picks that are handed out at a very large Baptist Church every election cycle.  It is a guide on who to vote for after they sent out questionnaires to all the candidates.  Not one Democrat was on the "vote for" list.  But there was no coercion or money winnings, but its still wrong for because of their tax-exempt status.  But no one every does anything about it.  Perhaps its time to start demanding our elected officials spend 0,000,000,000 on enforcing this law.  [/QUOTE]

I live in a heavily democratic area, and around here the dem candidates are the ones paying off the preachers in the churches, and the preachers demanding favors (city jobs for unqualified relatives, special favors from the city, unbelievably low tax assessments on their private residences, etc) .  I'm sure in predominately GOP districts it's the GOP paying off the preachers so they can maintain the GOP stranglehold on their offices. This crap crosses all party lines - it's corruption, pure and simple.
[QUOTE=justsaynoemore]I have seen the "voting" picks that are handed out at a very large Baptist Church every election cycle.  It is a guide on who to vote for after they sent out questionnaires to all the candidates.  Not one Democrat was on the "vote for" list.  But there was no coercion or money winnings, but its still wrong for because of their tax-exempt status.  But no one every does anything about it.  Perhaps its time to start demanding our elected officials spend 0,000,000,000 on enforcing this law.  [/QUOTE] Audrey. Are you ignoring my post to you? Please answer.


Audrey:
I guess what I don't understand about this is from how I understand it..... that the coming of the anti-Christ as prophesized in the book of revelations is one of the prerequisites that has to occur for the second coming of Christ. this prophesy as I understand is Gods will, the way it will be.   So are you saying that christian fundamentalist republicans can vote the anti-Christ out of office? Wouldn't you be thwarting Gods will?   If you believe in the prophesies of Revelations, what is it that you are worried about? Won't you and everyone else that has accepted Jesus Christ as your personal saviour be raptured off to heaven? One would think that you would be excited about the fulfillment of your prophesy and the prospect of impending accent to heaven. Can you explain this contradiction to me? I'm trying to understand where you are coming from.
I think every church in the nation needs to step up to the plate and help with this heavy tax burden that we are facing. They need to pay taxes. I don't understand why they are exempt.

[QUOTE=lorster]I think every church in the nation needs to step up to the plate and help with this heavy tax burden that we are facing. They need to pay taxes. I don't understand why they are exempt.

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I don't know about other churches, but my church runs a school, a food pantry, a homeless shelter and a soup kitchen.  Which program should we cut in order to pay taxes?  We spend around 00 per year per child to educate them; the public school down the road claims it costs 00 per year for them to educate a child.  Their classrooms are falling apart and overcrowded (35-40 kids in an AP classroom!).  They do not have enough money for each kid to have his/her own textbook - what would they do if our school and the other private schools in town (about 1000 students total) had to go to public school?  Where would they get the ,000,000 to educate them?  Not to mention the fact that 00 of my tax bill goes directly to the public school district... and BTW we voted FOR the last referendum to increase property taxes to benefit the public schools.

Where would the money come from for the soup kitchen, the food pantry, the shelter?
Yeah, that is a good point Jas. It is sad that our country has to have soup kitchens run by churches.(or by anyone for that matter). I saw a homeless guy sitting in front of Kmart today. So sad. It will soon be to cold for him to be here. Last winter, the uhaul truck company found a homeless man dead in one of their trucks. He had crawled in during a time when it was 20 below and froze to death. jasmine....found this article , on a interesting website..Pew Forum on religion and public life...

they are talking about something, that will happen, tomorrow, in some churches..


Pastors to Protest IRS Rules on Political Advocacy
On Sept. 28, pastors from 20 states will give political sermons from the pulpit to protest IRS restrictions on the political activities of churches and other charitable groups that are exempt from federal income taxation. To discuss these issues, the Pew Forum turns to church-state scholar Robert W. Tuttle.


We never got a voucher in Illinois, not even 00, sending our kids to a Catholic school, did, we??

Yes, we paid the property taxes, the private tuition, and our kids got better education, discipline, sometimes...then sending them to some crappy public school..



Sometimes it's the schools fault, sometimes they get some dead beat troublemakers, with moron parents, and i feel sorry for the teachers

But yes, the grammar school couldn't make it with out the Carnival, the candy sales, the Bingo...and the teachers were so dedicated, to have the low salary, compared to public schools, or they didn't ahve the required masters, or where working on them

They tried everything they could to keep the grammar school open, couldn't get enough enrollment, but we do have another one
Oh - and we do have to pay taxes on some stuff we do.  We have to pay 5% on Bingo ticket sales - not just profit, but total sales.  So if we take in 00 in cash, and pay out 00 that night, we have to pay 0 in taxes.  Add onto that the cost of bingo supplies (tickets, maintenance, etc) and we might make 0 from that 00 in sales.  The state makes 0, which they promptly piss away on corruption and greed.  Meanwhile we've got to turn away folks when we run out of food, or increase the tuition at school (which means fewer kids can attend a good school, and instead have to go to the miserably-failing public school...)...  it's a non-profit charity just like any other - United Way, the local women's shelter, the children's hospital, etc.  We also have a parish in Chicago that we hold a separate collection for once a month.  They have a school as well, and those inner-city kids at their school receive an excellent education and don't have to go to the crime-ridden Chicago public schools.

On the other hand, there's a guy in one of the ritzy suburbs who claims he turned his multimillion dollar house into a church (whose only members are his family) and the municipality is fighting that crap in court.  He's avoiding tens of thousands of dollars in property taxes, and it's clearly a scam.
[QUOTE=Linda61]jasmine....found this article , on a interesting website..Pew Forum on religion and public life...

they are talking about something, that will happen, tomorrow, in some churches..


Pastors to Protest IRS Rules on Political Advocacy
On Sept. 28, pastors from 20 states will give political sermons from the pulpit to protest IRS restrictions on the political activities of churches and other charitable groups that are exempt from federal income taxation. To discuss these issues, the Pew Forum turns to church-state scholar Robert W. Tuttle.


We never got a voucher in Illinois, not even 00, sending our kids to a Catholic school, did, we??

Yes, we paid the property taxes, the private tuition, and our kids got better education, discipline, sometimes...then sending them to some crappy public school..



Sometimes it's the schools fault, sometimes they get some dead beat troublemakers, with moron parents, and i feel sorry for the teachers

But yes, the grammar school couldn't make it with out the Carnival, the candy sales, the Bingo...and the teachers were so dedicated, to have the low salary, compared to public schools, or they didn't ahve the required masters, or where working on them

They tried everything they could to keep the grammar school open, couldn't get enough enrollment, but we do have another one
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I believe we get a 0 deduction from state taxes for the private-school tuition - and some people want to get rid of that!  Hmmm... give a 0 credit, and avoid paying 00 or more per kid to send them to the public school....

I don't know about you, but I don't want to be told how to vote in church.  Besides, at my church that's guaranteed to piss off a good part of the parish, no matter who the church supports.  We have a good mix of dems, GOPs, and independents.
well...I don't have the church bulletin, but at St. Peters Church in the Loop, in 2004, the current Pope, was a Cardinal then. Said a statement, about not supporting Kerry because of the pro/life thing.

My hubby went to that church that day, and told me, and he thought politics, should be not mentioned, unless this was a moral thing

I found some real interesting read from 2005 i think, from PBS, that explains how religion and politics are mixed these days..

Not starting any controversy, it explains both parties..and it's just the way it is..

not how i feel, thoug..
let me go get it, and copy itHere it is, sorry i messed up with just providing a link....

like i said, not starting anything, but it explains how things have come to be, both parties...

i think this was from 2005, but seems very accurate for today's times.....

...........................................................................

Perspectives: Religion and Politics
While the debate on the "separation of church and state" has been around for centuries arguments from both sides seem to have grown increasingly loud and passionate. Some religious groups have come under scrutiny for promoting politicians and championing causes that critics say is beyond their scope. NOW asked a number of commentators for their views on whether or not religious organizations have become too involved in American politics. We also cite a poll of Americans on related issues.

   
"Roughly half of Americans (51%) think churches and other houses of worship should express their views on day-to-day social and political questions," a poll of the American people found... more

    "The Bible teaches that civil government was God's idea (Romans 13:1). Since God created it, would he want his people to stay out of it? No," Kenyn M. Cureton, a Vice President at the Executive Committee of the Southern Baptist Convention... more   
   

   
"...many evangelical churches and ministries now function as adjuncts of the Republican Party," Michelle Goldberg, Senior Political Reporter for Salon.com... more     "The U.S. Constitution guarantees the separation of church and state, but that does not require a separation of religion and politics," John Green, Senior Fellow, Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life... more   
   

   
"In each subsequent election cycle more religious organizations are going further and further, abusing their public service role by mobilizing voters to affect electoral outcomes," Roy Speckhardt, Executive Director, American Humanist Association.... more     "Many of the leaders of the religious right do put politics before religion; for example, they criticize pro-choice Democrats but not pro-choice Republicans...," Alan Wolfe, Director, Boisi Center for Religion and American Public Life, Boston College... more   
   


The American People
Fifty-one percent of Americans think churches and other houses of worship should express their views on day-to-day social and political questions, while 44% believe these organizations should stay out of political matters, according to a July 2005 poll conducted by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public.

The research found that the public is generally comfortable with politicians mentioning their religious faith. More people say there is too little expression of religious faith by political leaders (39%) than say there is too much (26%).

Michelle Goldberg, senior political reporter for Salon.com and Author of "Kingdom Coming"
Rightwing religious organizations have become intertwined with American politics to a disturbing degree, so that many evangelical churches and ministries now function as adjuncts of the Republican Party (or maybe visa versa). In 2004, ostensibly non-partisan ballot initiatives like Ohio's anti-gay marriage Issue 1 allowed churches to take over huge parts of the GOP's get-out-the-vote apparatus -- they ran voter registration drives and massive phone-banking operations. Bush, in turn, has used the faith-based initiative like a Tammany Hall patronage system to reward supportive religious leaders. Not all Republicans are part of the religious right, of course, but the movement has a huge degree of power in setting the party's agenda.

John McCain has learned this lesson well. In 2000, McCain tried to separate himself from the dominant block within the GOP, denouncing Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell as "agents of intolerance." That kind of independence didn't work out too well for him, so this year McCain is embracing the forces he once disdained, giving the commencement speech at Falwell's Liberty University and telling Tim Russert, "I believe that the Christ -- quote, 'Christian right,' has a major role to play in the Republican Party." Obviously, the history of American politics is filled with the deeply devout, but the emergence of a sectarian political party -- one that frequently casts its opponents as not just wrong but metaphysically evil -- is something new and ominous.

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John Green, Senior Fellow, Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life
The involvement of religious groups in American politics has often generated controversy and with it confusion about its legality. The U.S. Constitution guarantees the separation of church and state, but that does not require a separation of religion and politics. After all, the Constitution also guarantees the free exercise of religion and for many people political activity is an integral part of the exercise of their religion. In addition, religious people have all the same political rights as other Americans. There are, however, some restrictions on the form religious politics can take. For example, in return for an exemption from paying taxes, congregations and some other religious organizations are prohibited from engaging directly in partisan politics, such as endorsing candidates. But within the context of such rules, religious people can voice their opinions on political matters in a variety of ways.

Whether such legal activities are desirable is another question. Here there is often considerable debate--even within religious communities themselves. Just as one can agree with freedom of speech and disagree with what a particular person speaks, one can accept religious politics and reject the political goals of a particular religious group. More often than not, it is the deeper disagreements about issues that raise questions about the political activities of religious people.

Roy Speckhardt, Executive Director, American Humanist Association
Many religious organizations have become so involved in American politics that they are breaching the wall separating church and state. Using their emotional influence and shared religious ideas as a wedge to provide filtered information on cultural and scientific issues, they exercise undue influence on the unsuspecting faithful. The believers they approach often don't recognize that the provided background on issues and candidates may be factually inaccurate, misleading, or one-sided. Moreover, in each subsequent election cycle more religious organizations are going further and further, abusing their public service role by mobilizing voters to effect electoral outcomes. Humanists hold that using religious institutions as an extension of the cyclical political machinery damages the founding and constitutional principles that have made America great. Secular government is necessary for effective democracy in a pluralistic society--and proper respect for the deeply held beliefs of all citizens."

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Alan Wolfe, Boisi Center for Religion and American Public Life, Boston College
Everyone in America has the right to free speech and ought to be involved in politics. This includes religious organizations, which often bring to public discussion a prophetic perspective from which society benefits. Yet every American is also free to recognize that when religious individuals and organizations put politics before faith, their views have no special status and ought to be given no special respect. Many of the leaders of the religious right do put politics before religion; for example, they criticize pro-choice Democrats but not pro-choice Republicans or they insist that issues such as gay marriage are central but not issues such as poverty. It would be a serious mistake for religious leaders and organizations from the left to do the same thing.

Kenyn M. Cureton, a Vice President at the Executive Committee of the Southern Baptist Convention
The short answer is: "No." The Bible teaches that civil government was God's idea (Romans 13:1). Since God created it, would he want his people to stay out of it? No. Jesus instructs: "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's" (Matthew 22:21). Christ-followers are obligated to contribute to government, which in America means more than paying taxes. To abandon the political arena is to disobey Christ's command to be change-agents in our culture (Matthew 5:13-16). Christians have a biblical mandate to participate in government.

Christians and churches have been vitally involved in American politics from the beginning. True, the First Amendment originally prohibited Congress from making any law establishing a particular denomination of Christianity as "The National Church," but it also protected the free exercise of our faith, including in the political arena. In that discussion, our Founding Fathers narrowly defined "separation of church and state," but never intended a strict separation of God from government. Their writings and actions clearly demonstrate this point - a point that has been lost through decades of historical revisionism and the rhetoric of secular fundamentalists. Therefore, Christians have a God-given responsibility and a Constitutional right to be even more involved in the American political arena.

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Lorster, I think it's the churches who SHOULD be running the soup kitchens and such.  I don't believe that charity should be forced by our government.  American are the most charitable people in the world, statistically.  And I mean individuals out of their own pockets, aside of what the government doles out.  If the governmemt would stay out of it, coummunities would take care of their own.  I think people resent the government looting their bank accounts giving them no say as to whom or how much we give.All across the nation today, preachers are talking politics from the pulpit. It may not be happening at your church, but it is happening. They are thinking they are above the law. This is a perfect example of why the church should not be involved in our politics. If they are above the law in regards to the IRS, where do they stop. They have crossed the line and now, I hope the IRS goes after them and removes their exempt status. 6t5, I once again want to thank you for an excellent thread. The sky is falling is a perfect name for the religious debate. [QUOTE=lorster] Audrey. Are you ignoring my post to you? Please answer.


Audrey:
I guess what I don't understand about this is from how I understand it..... that the coming of the anti-Christ as prophesized in the book of revelations is one of the prerequisites that has to occur for the second coming of Christ. this prophesy as I understand is Gods will, the way it will be.   So are you saying that christian fundamentalist republicans can vote the anti-Christ out of office? Wouldn't you be thwarting Gods will?   If you believe in the prophesies of Revelations, what is it that you are worried about? Won't you and everyone else that has accepted Jesus Christ as your personal saviour be raptured off to heaven? One would think that you would be excited about the fulfillment of your prophesy and the prospect of impending accent to heaven. Can you explain this contradiction to me? I'm trying to understand where you are coming from.
[/QUOTE]


Bump for Audrey.I don't think Audrey said that she thinks BO IS the anti christ, did she?  I think she said that she thinks he's as close as you can get.  Obviously meaning that she thinks he's a bad man and against God.It may be a small number of pastors/ministers participating in this politicking from the pulpit stance.  By doing so, I believe they want to trigger an IRS investigation so they can challenge the constitutionality of this ban in court.  In my opinion, they have freedom of speech, but forego their tax exemption status if their sermons sound like campaign speeches for specific candidates or parties. [QUOTE=lorster] [QUOTE=lorster] Audrey. Are you ignoring my post to you? Please answer.


Audrey:
I guess what I don't understand about this is from how I understand it..... that the coming of the anti-Christ as prophesized in the book of revelations is one of the prerequisites that has to occur for the second coming of Christ. this prophesy as I understand is Gods will, the way it will be.   So are you saying that christian fundamentalist republicans can vote the anti-Christ out of office? Wouldn't you be thwarting Gods will?   If you believe in the prophesies of Revelations, what is it that you are worried about? Won't you and everyone else that has accepted Jesus Christ as your personal saviour be raptured off to heaven? One would think that you would be excited about the fulfillment of your prophesy and the prospect of impending accent to heaven. Can you explain this contradiction to me? I'm trying to understand where you are coming from.
[/QUOTE]


Bump for Audrey.[/QUOTE] I rest my case. How is your RA today DONN?[QUOTE=lorster]6t5, I once again want to thank you for an excellent