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FRONTLINE INVESTIGATES THE FAILURES OF AMERICA’S HEALTH CARE SYSTEM

FRONTLINE Presents
SICK AROUND AMERICA
Tuesday, March 31, 2009, at 9 P.M. ET on PBS

www.pbs.org/frontline/sickaroundamerica

As the worsening economy leads to massive job losses—potentially forcing millions more Americans to go without health insurance—FRONTLINE travels the country examining the nation’s broken health care system and explores the need for a fundamental overhaul. Veteran FRONTLINE producer Jon Palfreman dissects the private insurance system, a system that not only fails to cover 46 million Americans but also leaves millions more underinsured and at risk of bankruptcy, in Sick Around America, airing Tuesday, March 31, 2009, at 9 P.M. ET on PBS (check local listings).

At its best, American health care can be very good. For Microsoft employee Mark Murray and his wife, Melinda, their employee health plan paid for eight years of fertility treatments and covered all the costs of a very complicated pregnancy. “If it wasn’t for our health insurance,” Murray says, “we wouldn’t have a baby boy right now.” The Murrays’ medical bills totaled between 0,000 and million, and their plan covered every penny.

But beyond large, high-wage employers like Microsoft, FRONTLINE learns that available, affordable, adequate insurance is becoming hard to find. Small businesses face a very bleak outlook for finding and keeping coverage. Coverage is becoming more expensive and less comprehensive, with high deductibles, co-pays and coverage limits. Georgetown University Professor Karen Pollitz explains that for many people, the current system is “like having an airbag in your car that’s made out of tissue paper: I’m so glad that it’s there, but if I ever get in a crash, it’s not going to protect me.”

Outside of employer-based health care plans, matters are even worse. Americans seeking insurance in the individual market must submit to “medical underwriting,” and if they have a pre-existing condition, they will likely be denied. Kaiser Permanente Chairman and CEO George Halverson says frankly: “I could not get insurance. I’ve had heart surgery, and so I am completely uninsurable in the private market. So it’s important that I keep my job.”

Across the United States, FRONTLINE finds people making life decisions based on health insurance, stuck in jobs because of so-called job lock. One such person is 23-year-old Twin Cities, Minn., resident Matt Johnson, who put his career dreams on hold to get a job at Menards home improvement store because its benefits package covers his ulcerative colitis. Americans even stay in bad marriages, says Professor Pollitz, “because they just can’t afford to divorce their health insurance.”

For those Americans who find health coverage in the private market, there’s no guarantee it will protect them. In 2007, Palm Desert, Calif., realtor Jennifer Thompson received a letter from Blue Cross accepting her for coverage that read: “Congratulations! You have been approved for coverage with Blue Cross of California. ... The immediate value of your coverage is peace of mind.” But then Thompson discovered she had a cancer that required surgery, and three days after leaving the hospital, she received a letter from Blue Cross saying that her insurance was “rescinded,” leaving her uninsured and owing more than 0,000 in medical bills. Blue Cross cited Thompson’s previous history of cancer and results from a recent doctor’s visit as the reasons for the rescission. “Our system is not working,” says Professor Pollitz. “It’s designed to cut out on you right when you need it the most.” When questioned about Thompson’s case, Sam Nussbaum, chief medical officer of WellPoint, which owns Blue Cross of California, told FRONTLINE that because of legal considerations, “I can’t speak to that circumstance ... but no one likes to see a situation like this. People are buying health security.”

In the past, some states required insurance companies to cover everyone but found that many people waited to buy insurance until they fell ill, causing “adverse selection,” or a higher ratio of unhealthy to healthy people in the insurance pool. As a result, insurance companies stopped doing business in those states. Today, only five states—New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Maine and Vermont—guarantee everyone insurance, a “privilege” reflected in premiums. “If we look at the average premium of those states,” says WellPoint’s Nussbaum, “that premium is three times higher on average—maybe 0 to 0 versus a [state] where the insurance market has allowed medical underwriting.”

For some Americans, life becomes a quest to find and keep health insurance. In 1994, Nikki White, a Bristol, Tenn., native with dreams of becoming a doctor, was diagnosed with lupus, a serious but treatable autoimmune disorder. Too ill to work, she lost her health insurance for several years, but then received coverage from the state’s Medicaid program. Soon, budget cuts made her ineligible for the state program. A few months later, White was rushed to the ER with severe lupus complications and racked up nearly million in medical bills. She finally secured insurance under the government HIPPA law, but her condition was too advanced, and in 2006, at the age of 32, she died. White’s primary care physician, Amylyn Crawford, tells FRONTLINE: “Nikki didn’t die from lupus. Nikki died secondary to the complications of a failing health care system.”

Around the world, other developed democracies offer universal health care, requiring insurance companies to cover everyone. People are mandated to buy it; insurance for the poor is subsidized; and governments control prices by setting the cost of everything from doctors’ salaries and hospital rooms to drugs and MRIs. But efforts to implement similar policies in the U.S. have proven unsuccessful. In 2006, Massachusetts implemented reforms mandating everyone be covered by health insurance, but there are still problems of affordability. FRONTLINE profiles the Abramses, a Massachusetts family of four earning ,000 annually, who found that although they were too prosperous to receive a health care subsidy, they could not afford to buy a health care insurance policy at around ,000 a year. “What we’re finding out in Massachusetts,” says veteran insurance industry executive and consultant Robert Laszewski, “you can mandate that people have health insurance, but if it costs more than they can afford, it doesn’t matter.”

As President Obama launches his plan for reforming health care, Kaiser Family Foundation President Drew Altman tells FRONTLINE: ’This is the first big opportunity for health reform since ... [the] early 1990s. And a question is again, pointedly, whether we will blow the opportunity again this time or [whether] we will actually get it all done or get something significant done.” But consultant Laszewski wonders if Americans have the will to make it happen. “Every doctor I meet says he’s underpaid. I’ve yet to meet a hospital executive who thinks he or she can operate on less. I have yet to meet a patient who is willing to sacrifice care. So we have this .2 trillion system, and I haven’t met anybody in any of the stakeholders that’s willing to take less. And until we’re willing to have that conversation, we’re just sort of nibbling around the edges.”

Sick Around America is a FRONTLINE co-production with Palfreman Film Group. The writer, producer and director is Jon Palfreman. FRONTLINE is produced by WGBH Boston and is broadcast nationwide on PBS. Funding for FRONTLINE is provided through the support of PBS viewers. Major funding for FRONTLINE is provided by The John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation. Additional series funding is provided by the Park Foundation. Additional funding for Sick Around America is provided by The Colorado Health Foundation, The Commonwealth Fund and The Colorado Trust. FRONTLINE is closed-captioned for deaf and hard-of-hearing viewers and described for people who are blind or visually impaired by the Media Access Group at WGBH. FRONTLINE is a registered trademark of WGBH Educational Foundation. The senior producer is Raney Aronson. The executive producer of special projects is Michael Sullivan. The executive producer of FRONTLINE is David Fanning.


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundamerica/




I set the DVR for this.. thanks.When is the show for showing the many success of the American Health Care System ? Oh Wait it's PBS  [QUOTE=6t5frlane]When is the show for showing the many success of the American Health Care System ? Oh Wait it's PBS [/QUOTE]


Paragraph two of above PBS article:

At its best, American health care can be very good. For Microsoft employee Mark Murray and his wife, Melinda, their employee health plan paid for eight years of fertility treatments and covered all the costs of a very complicated pregnancy. “If it wasn’t for our health insurance,” Murray says, “we wouldn’t have a baby boy right now.” The Murrays’ medical bills totaled between 0,000 and million, and their plan covered every penny.

But beyond large, high-wage employers like Microsoft, FRONTLINE learns that available, affordable, adequate insurance is becoming hard to find.



THIS PROGRAM WILL ALSO BE VIEWABLE ONLINE.


Joie2009-03-30 08:26:21 [QUOTE=Joie]

At its best, American health care can be very good. For Microsoft employee Mark Murray and his wife, Melinda, their employee health plan paid for eight years of fertility treatments and covered all the costs of a very complicated pregnancy. “If it wasn’t for our health insurance,” Murray says, “we wouldn’t have a baby boy right now.” The Murrays’ medical bills totaled between 0,000 and million, and their plan covered every penny.


[/QUOTE]

Unreal. This is part of the reason healthcare costs is so high. What a couple of self-centered douchebags.
Joy -
 
Thanks for telling me about this aspect - hubby is setting the Tivo now.
 
For anybody interested in what we COULD have if you go to there website and look up "Sick Around the World" you'll see the first part of this expose'.  We could have soooo much better than we have now.
 
Pip
PS - LOVE those Smart Cards.
[QUOTE=Pip!]Joy -
 
Thanks for telling me about this aspect - hubby is setting the Tivo now.
 
For anybody interested in what we COULD have if you go to there website and look up "Sick Around the World" you'll see the first part of this expose'.  We could have soooo much better than we have now.
 
Pip
PS - LOVE those Smart Cards.
[/QUOTE]
 
OR we could have worse.....  sometimes the grass isn't greener......
[QUOTE=6t5frlane]When is the show for showing the many success of the American Health Care System ? Oh Wait it's PBS [/QUOTE]
 
We could watch a special about healthcare in America on Fox News entitled "I Got Mine - Screw Everyone Else".
Babs -
 
You are always saying you are going to look at some link, some video, some info, and never do.  In this case, in order to sound more knowledgeable, you might consider actually viewing either of the above mentioned videos.  Keeping your head in the sand isn't going to help you when your insurance is cancelled.
 
Pip
What's interesting about Frontline's other program "Sick Around the World" is that though the five countries discussed all have universal health care, they have different ways of financing and delivering health care -- covering all their citizens and spending less for health care than the US (which leaves millions without access).

The smart card Pip is referring to is the card all Taiwanese use for medical care.  The medical provider swipes the card and electronically bills government for payment, saving quite a bit in administration costs, money then available for medical care.

The journalist narrating the program is an entertaining guy, so its not a dull documentary, but an insightful program on how other democratic, capitalist countries provide health care.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/


 
[QUOTE=Hillhoney][QUOTE=6t5frlane]When is the show for showing the many success of the American Health Care System ? Oh Wait it's PBS [/QUOTE]
 
We could watch a special about healthcare in America on Fox News entitled "I Got Mine - Screw Everyone Else".
[/QUOTE]
 
I'd watch that

Hill -

Good post and point. 
 
Joy -
 
I think that is the biggest point in the Around the World episode - all the ways to save money on billing that could be used to pay for our sick people.  If we had this, we'd have more of an incentive to actually find our cure.
 
Pip
[QUOTE=Pip!]Babs -
 
You are always saying you are going to look at some link, some video, some info, and never do.  In this case, in order to sound more knowledgeable, you might consider actually viewing either of the above mentioned videos.  Keeping your head in the sand isn't going to help you when your insurance is cancelled.
 
Pip
[/QUOTE]
 
who the hell do you think you are?
You want to start something w/ me on here, you got it PIP
 
I HAVE always read any and every link I have claimed to read.. as well as all the books....
that is why I KNOW that when I make a comment against or for something.. I'VE DONE MY RESEARCH.
 
you want to contradict me or stay I am lying.. you better think again.....Do not ever go there again unless you want to open a gigantic can of worms.....
 
BTW.. I have excellent insurance........ 
babs102009-03-30 12:47:40Yes, I saved your post about that too - the one where you say you don't want less so others can be covered.  Stunned me that you were so blatent.
 
Ok, let's go there.  Why don't you search your response posts to my posting something.  Easy to do here.  Search posts by Pip and if there is a link in the first post follow it down to your response.  Do you realize how many times you've said 'I'll see that when I get home"?  Do you know how many times you didn't comment later?
 
I do.
 
Pip
are you taking twist lessons from gimpy?? 
 
I usually don't comment til later.. for several reasons
#1.... I"m not interested in every verb you spew.
#2.... I'm enjoying my newfound recovery of a sort and getting the flock out as often as I can!!
#3.... and did I say.. frankly, Scarlette...................................................

Hey, I don't want less either...We have worked very long and hard to get to where we are today.  My family has made sacrifices to have the kind of insurance coverage that we have now.......

Oh and when my husband retires before he's 65, we will have no retiree health benefits.  I'm not asking anyone to pay those for me either...We have financial resources that will take care of that issue. 
 
I'm not against universal healthcare...I just don't want my pocket picked after we have made choices and sacrifices to obtain a certain standard of living.

 

Babs -
 
You have some sort of inability to realize you keep stalking people.  I'm not allowing you to keep following me around and posting crap that doesn't make sense and then get all defensive because you have no freakin idea what's just been posted.  My absolute fave was the other day when you came up behind somebody on the AP thread, said 'yea that!" and had no freakin' clue what my response was and it was only TWO posts back.  You are a fool.  Period.  You are uneducated.  You couldn't research your freakin way out of a paper bag so your only hope is to blindly follow whoever gives you some barely sentient response to whatever was just posted.
 
So, how does one deal with a moron? 
 
Since that brouhaha a month to six weeks back After GoGo and I joked about writing a book - well - I thought why NOT write a book?  Why not show the posts, and the obscure twisting responses from people like you and Lev?  I mean really, why not?  It's posted here.  As long as I credit the source, why the heck not?
 
So, I went back and started downloading all the most vile posts.  Anybody remember Aleva?  I do.  Slant eyes?  I do.  All Donn's bigoted crap during the election?  I do. 
 
Then I got started sending emails out to my friends who've 1) dealt with this BS before 2) did AP and 3) wanted to express themselves.  Got some great responses.
 
You are in the book.  Finally - some posterity for you. 
 
Pip
[QUOTE=Lynn49]

Hey, I don't want less either...We have worked very long and hard to get to where we are today.  My family has made sacrifices to have the kind of insurance coverage that we have now.......

Oh and when my husband retires before he's 65, we will have no retiree health benefits.  I'm not asking anyone to pay those for me either...We have financial resources that will take care of that issue. 
 
I'm not against universal healthcare...I just don't want my pocket picked after we have made choices and sacrifices to obtain a certain standard of living.

 

[/QUOTE]
 
Pocket picked?  This is the idea so eloquently expressed by Hill.
[QUOTE=Pip!][QUOTE=Lynn49]

Hey, I don't want less either...We have worked very long and hard to get to where we are today.  My family has made sacrifices to have the kind of insurance coverage that we have now.......

Oh and when my husband retires before he's 65, we will have no retiree health benefits.  I'm not asking anyone to pay those for me either...We have financial resources that will take care of that issue. 
 
I'm not against universal healthcare...I just don't want my pocket picked after we have made choices and sacrifices to obtain a certain standard of living.

 

[/QUOTE]
 
Pocket picked?  This is the idea so eloquently expressed by Hill.
[/QUOTE]
 
What that saying Pip...Those who can, do..Those who can't...reach into someone else's pocket!
I actually think about is as the basic tenet of Christianity - what you do for the least of my brothers...I know, crazy belief nowadays.  That whole "greed is good/Wall Street" supercedes that outdated belief.
 
Pip
I think entitlement is highly overrated. While I would like to see some type of "universal health care" in my lifetime, I find little health "care" in any system in the US. Instead what I see, and yes, I do realize my perception is just that-mine, a great deal of ill care.

I realized many years ago that it was going to be up to me to provide for myself in both health and the absence of health and that to expect any entitlement was not only foolish, but impractical.

I pay my own way, but cannot pay for anyone else. If that makes me less than an upholder of the Christian tenet quoted above, so be it.

And no, I am not a moron. That descriptor seems to be used for anyone who is not in agreement and in its overuse on this discussion board has begun to take on the form of a compliment.

Now, having left myself open to an attack, I will withdrawn and bid everyone a good day.
 
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today.  Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime”—Author unknown

If any of you had seen the above episodes, you'd realize that it will eventually cost us LESS in TAXES than we spend now - thereby making healthcare affordable to more people. 

Lynn - that is silly, really silly.  What are sick people supposed to do, FISH for their meds?  Just how do you advocate teaching fishing in 'I'm going bankrupt because of medical expenses' model?

Pip

I'd suggest you read up on analogies..........I suggest you read up on using analogies that work as a proper descriptor.  Spell it out for me - how do we teach people to 'fish' in this model? 
 
Pip
[QUOTE=Pip!]I actually think about is as the basic tenet of Christianity - what you do for the least of my brothers...I know, crazy belief nowadays.  That whole "greed is good/Wall Street" supercedes that outdated belief. Jas -
 
Are you one of the people that have not viewed the first video?  The point, which is continually being missed by a few people here, is that IN THE LONG RUN YOU GET TO KEEP MORE OF YOUR MONEY which should appeal to the people who don't care for the basic Christian concept.
 
Jesus threw the money changers out of the temple.  Wonder what he would have thought of AIG?
 
Pip
 
Oops - wrong 'threw'.
Pip!2009-03-30 16:55:56I have no doubt that my taxes will increase to support this. I've heard all the bullsh*t money-savings claims here in Illinois, and our taxes (property, sales, and now income) keep going UP to pay for all the entitlements.

Screw AIG - I wonder what Jesus would have thought of Illinois government.  Well, at least you can put up an arguement in favor of 'keep it for myself'. 
 
The US is ranked 37th in quality of healthcare worldwide - yet we pay 16-17 % of our GNP for something we don't want to 'trade' up for.  Japan, I think it was in the video, paid 7%.  One of my daughters best friends never has work done here unless it's an emergency - they wait to get it done in Japan.  And they have health insurance.
 
Pip

 
and Pip.... don't come to a battle of wits unarmed...........
Watch out your great insurance can be gone fast, ours was.
We had awesome insurance and then the company my husband works for was bought out by a large nation wide company. In one months time our 10 dollar copay went to a 25% copay, and alot of my tests are not even covered. My last office visit, labs and xrays cost me 5.
Under our old insurance it would have all been covered after the .
One of my dearest friends is in the hospital right now. She had an aneurysm. She has been in for 3 weeks now. Thank God it looks like she will recover, but I cannot imagine what the hospital and therapy bill will be. She is lucky she has good insurance and it will only cost her family their 0 copay. It would bankrupt us.
We have busted our butts all of our lives to have a nice house, cars and vacations. It could all be gone in an instant just because some CEO wants to save a little money!
And no the company is not even close to having money problems. Last year they needed to get rid of profits so they flew all managers (my dh included) to Vegas for 5 days.
My dh is looking for a new job with better insurance but he is in a somewhat specialized field so not alot of openings.
[QUOTE=Pip!]Babs -
 
You have some sort of inability to realize you keep stalking people.  I'm not allowing you to keep following me around and posting crap that doesn't make sense and then get all defensive because you have no freakin idea what's just been posted.  My absolute fave was the other day when you came up behind somebody on the AP thread, said 'yea that!" and had no freakin' clue what my response was and it was only TWO posts back.  You are a fool.  Period.  You are uneducated.  You couldn't research your freakin way out of a paper bag so your only hope is to blindly follow whoever gives you some barely sentient response to whatever was just posted.
 
So, how does one deal with a moron? 
 
Since that brouhaha a month to six weeks back After GoGo and I joked about writing a book - well - I thought why NOT write a book?  Why not show the posts, and the obscure twisting responses from people like you and Lev?  I mean really, why not?  It's posted here.  As long as I credit the source, why the heck not?
 
So, I went back and started downloading all the most vile posts.  Anybody remember Aleva?  I do.  Slant eyes?  I do.  All Donn's bigoted crap during the election?  I do. 
 
Then I got started sending emails out to my friends who've 1) dealt with this BS before 2) did AP and 3) wanted to express themselves.  Got some great responses.
 
You are in the book.  Finally - some posterity for you. 
 
Pip
[/QUOTE]
 
STALKING!!!  who's stalking who?????  lev would be laughing his butt off to read that... who was the crazed lunatic challenging him to meet some insanity in person........
 
 
 
 
 
Babs - you are soooo cute!  You were the fat unpopular kid in HS, weren't you, whose only job was to say 'me too!'?
 
Everybody has noticed YOU haven't come up with a logical explanation for how you are soooo damn sure you aren't going to need this health care in the future.  We're at a 10% unemployment rate only 6 months since the meltdown.  Todays headlines are about Pier 1 closing 80 locations, with a list of 39 other employers cutting jobs/stores.  The Great Depression lasted 10 years - we're still in the honeymoon stage of the 'recovery'.  We have 9 1/2 years to go.  I'm betting - any takers? - that we'll be at 15% at the end of the year.
 
Pip
Babs - how bad is your fog?  Look at the first post.  How far back until you started.  Like on every thread.
 
Like with other people. 
 
Lev is laughing?  See, he keeps saying he's happy with everything he's posted.  Surely he won't be ashamed. 
 
Pip
[QUOTE=Pip!]Babs - how bad is your fog?  Look at the first post.  How far back until you started.  Like on every thread.
 
Like with other people. 
 
Lev is laughing?  See, he keeps saying he's happy with everything he's posted.  Surely he won't be ashamed. 
 
Pip
[/QUOTE]
 
you make NO sense.
 
Lev isnt ashamed of anything he posted... He's laughing at who the stalker is...
 
I guarantee I will have a job (If I chose to) and have health insurance as long as I wish..... how bout that..CAN YOU say that??   I can...
 
[QUOTE=Pip!]Babs - you are soooo cute!  You were the fat unpopular kid in HS, weren't you, whose only job was to say 'me too!'?
 
Everybody has noticed YOU haven't come up with a logical explanation for how you are soooo damn sure you aren't going to need this health care in the future.  We're at a 10% unemployment rate only 6 months since the meltdown.  Todays headlines are about Pier 1 closing 80 locations, with a list of 39 other employers cutting jobs/stores.  The Great Depression lasted 10 years - we're still in the honeymoon stage of the 'recovery'.  We have 9 1/2 years to go.  I'm betting - any takers? - that we'll be at 15% at the end of the year.
 
Pip
[/QUOTE]
 
as if....... I'd work at Pier 1...... 
 
This little fat kid who was so unpopular in high school had the middle name TOO MUCH FUN... and has business and finance degrees you would dream about..........
 
so don't tell this poster about the economy
 
like I said..
 
don't come to a battle of wits unarmed
[QUOTE=Pip!]Babs - you are soooo cute!  You were the fat unpopular kid in HS, weren't you, whose only job was to say 'me too!'?
 
so.. you were right the first time:
 
Babs - you are soooo cute!
babs102009-03-30 18:05:30[QUOTE=JasmineRain] [QUOTE=Pip!]Babs - you are soooo cute!  You were the fat unpopular kid in HS, weren't you, whose only job was to say 'me too!'?
 
Everybody has noticed YOU haven't come up with a logical explanation for how you are soooo damn sure you aren't going to need this health care in the future.  We're at a 10% unemployment rate only 6 months since the meltdown.  Todays headlines are about Pier 1 closing 80 locations, with a list of 39 other employers cutting jobs/stores.  The Great Depression lasted 10 years - we're still in the honeymoon stage of the 'recovery'.  We have 9 1/2 years to go.  I'm betting - any takers? - that we'll be at 15% at the end of the year.
 
Pip
[/QUOTE]

What's the deal with you and fat people?
[/QUOTE]
 
I think that it's called projecting your inadaquacies onto other people.....
[QUOTE=Rincon]Watch out your great insurance can be gone fast, ours was.
We had awesome insurance and then the company my husband works for was bought out by a large nation wide company. In one months time our 10 dollar copay went to a 25% copay, and alot of my tests are not even covered. My last office visit, labs and xrays cost me 5.
Under our old insurance it would have all been covered after the .
One of my dearest friends is in the hospital right now. She had an aneurysm. She has been in for 3 weeks now. Thank God it looks like she will recover, but I cannot imagine what the hospital and therapy bill will be. She is lucky she has good insurance and it will only cost her family their 0 copay. It would bankrupt us.
We have busted our butts all of our lives to have a nice house, cars and vacations. It could all be gone in an instant just because some CEO wants to save a little money!
And no the company is not even close to having money problems. Last year they needed to get rid of profits so they flew all managers (my dh included) to Vegas for 5 days.
My dh is looking for a new job with better insurance but he is in a somewhat specialized field so not alot of openings.
[/QUOTE]
 
I don't want to sound rude here, but I've been without insurance and had insurance that the rate was 70/30.  During the time I had the 70/30 rate, my daughter was diagnosed with cancer and my leg was shattered in an accident, so I know what it's like to be knee deep in medical bills.
 
Thousands and thousands of medical bills, PT bills, scans, bloodwork, etc...........It was a long, long process but we managed to pay off those bills and we learned how to live with less.  Now we are in a very good position with very little debt and great health insurance...But rest assured, I'm very aware of what illnesses can do to people's finances....
 
 
Lynn -
 
Just think, you'd not have had to do with less, nor would you have had to pay off all those bills had the US thought to take care of it's less fortunate.  You'd have been covered and kept more of what you had earned.
 
Jas -
 
I'm not the person that posted about fat before.  You are confusing people.  It seemed to bother Baboon butt then so I used it.  Just giving credit where credit is due.
 
Rincon -
 
I know exactly what you are talking about.  Our insurance has been 'cut' while the CEO's and bigwigs in my husbands Fortune 500 company's hasn't.  Things they used to cover; now they don't.  If he loses his job in the upcoming 'market correction' then neither of us are going to be able to get insurance - because of pre-existing conditions.  Maybe, I'm more compassionate than Babs and crew - I'm realizing that 'there, by the Grace of God, go I".  We followed the 'rules' and planned for retirement - now that's all up in smoke - and its a pretty sure thing what's coming in America's future. 
 
Pip
[QUOTE=babs10][QUOTE=Pip!]Babs - you are soooo cute!  You were the fat unpopular kid in HS, weren't you, whose only job was to say 'me too!'?
 
Everybody has noticed YOU haven't come up with a logical explanation for how you are soooo damn sure you aren't going to need this health care in the future.  We're at a 10% unemployment rate only 6 months since the meltdown.  Todays headlines are about Pier 1 closing 80 locations, with a list of 39 other employers cutting jobs/stores.  The Great Depression lasted 10 years - we're still in the honeymoon stage of the 'recovery'.  We have 9 1/2 years to go.  I'm betting - any takers? - that we'll be at 15% at the end of the year.
 
Pip
[/QUOTE]
 
as if....... I'd work at Pier 1...... 
 
This little fat kid who was so unpopular in high school had the middle name TOO MUCH FUN... and has business and finance degrees you would dream about..........
 
so don't tell this poster about the economy
 
like I said..
 
don't come to a battle of wits unarmed
[/QUOTE]
 
 
 
1) Saving for posterity.
 
2) Showing Babs is much to good to work at a 'regular' job like most people in the US thereby proving she's incapable of compassion, understanding and thinks she's much better than everybody else.
 
3) wondering if Babs is willing to bet her understanding of the current economic climate with those "business and finance degrees" by actually forecasting what she thinks is going to happen over the next 10 years. 
[QUOTE=Pip!] [QUOTE=Pip!]Lynn -
 
Just think, you'd not have had to do with less, nor would you have had to pay off all those bills had the US thought to take care of it's less fortunate.  You'd have been covered and kept more of what you had earned.
 
Jas -
 
I'm not the person that posted about fat before.  You are confusing people.  It seemed to bother Baboon butt then so I used it.  Just giving credit where credit is due.
 
Rincon -
 
I know exactly what you are talking about.  Our insurance has been 'cut' while the CEO's and bigwigs in my husbands Fortune 500 company's hasn't.  Things they used to cover; now they don't.  If he loses his job in the upcoming 'market correction' then neither of us are going to be able to get insurance - because of pre-existing conditions.  Maybe, I'm more compassionate than Babs and crew - I'm realizing that 'there, by the Grace of God, go I".  We followed the 'rules' and planned for retirement - now that's all up in smoke - and its a pretty sure thing what's coming in America's future. 
 
Pip
[/QUOTE]
 
I guess that's the difference between you and me...I don't expect someone else or the government to pay MY bills......
[QUOTE=Pip!][QUOTE=babs10][QUOTE=Pip!]Babs - you are soooo cute!  You were the fat unpopular kid in HS, weren't you, whose only job was to say 'me too!'?
 
Everybody has noticed YOU haven't come up with a logical explanation for how you are soooo damn sure you aren't going to need this health care in the future.  We're at a 10% unemployment rate only 6 months since the meltdown.  Todays headlines are about Pier 1 closing 80 locations, with a list of 39 other employers cutting jobs/stores.  The Great Depression lasted 10 years - we're still in the honeymoon stage of the 'recovery'.  We have 9 1/2 years to go.  I'm betting - any takers? - that we'll be at 15% at the end of the year.
 
Pip
[/QUOTE]
 
as if....... I'd work at Pier 1...... 
 
This little fat kid who was so unpopular in high school had the middle name TOO MUCH FUN... and has business and finance degrees you would dream about..........
 
so don't tell this poster about the economy
 
like I said..
 
don't come to a battle of wits unarmed
[/QUOTE]
 
 
 
1) Saving for posterity.
 
2) Showing Babs is much to good to work at a 'regular' job like most people in the US thereby proving she's incapable of compassion, understanding and thinks she's much better than everybody else.
 
3) wondering if Babs is willing to bet her understanding of the current economic climate with those "business and finance degrees" by actually forecasting what she thinks is going to happen over the next 10 years. 
[/QUOTE]
 
I certainly do not denigrate anyone's job.. but I didn't go to college to run retail..... did that in high school...and I waitressed and performed two other serving jobs (cafe breakfast and clerical) while working through college....  
 
I have more empathy and compassion than msot people on this site. and I can state I definitely have more than you, who cannot open her mind to the opportunities to medicate diseases that are harmful and destructive that don't follow your etch-a-sketch outlines..
 
sure, I could predict... and I have as good a chance as any to do that well.. but, I get paid for my advice and am not permitted to share outside the parameters of my business.... 
 
you're forgetting about that battle.......  get some wits about ya!
Babs -
 
If somebody ignores a 'trite' joke, not once, not twice, but three times, that pretty much gaurantees it wasn't up to standards.  Come on, can't you call in some AI favors and get some funny ones? 
 
Not that you have standards.
 
Lets be real, is somebody supposed to actually believe you get paid for giving financial advice?  Like any of us knew what you did for a living.  It just sounds like you are afraid to post your 'laughable' predictions so we can mock you for being sooooo off base over the next few years.
 
What empathy Babs?  To whom?  To anybody considering something other than non-mainstream medicine, it's non-existant.
 
And to think you were considering learning naturopathy.  LMAO.
 
Pip
[QUOTE=Pip!]If any of you had seen the above episodes, you'd realize that it will eventually cost us LESS in TAXES than we spend now - thereby making healthcare affordable to more people. [/QUOTE]

I have seen the first episode, more than once. It is exceedingly easy to show how wonderful medical care is in other countries. However, when only one side is detailed the effectiveness of the argument wanes.

Less taxes? I have heard that enigma tortured, reposited, restored, revamped, and restated far too often for it to be meaningful.

I know all about losing insurance coverage through work, but I was prepared for such an eventuality.  It did not take too much prescience to see that the bubble of work-provided entitlements were not ironclad nor guaranteed. I have not unduly suffered for the loss.

I wonder why discussions cannot remain fixed on the topic rather than devolving into personal attack, name calling, and innuendo...

[QUOTE=Spelunker]
I wonder why discussions cannot remain fixed on the topic rather than devolving into personal attack, name calling, and innuendo...

[/QUOTE]
 
Because that is the modus operandi of a certain set of posters here..
[QUOTE=Lynn49][QUOTE=Spelunker]
I wonder why discussions cannot remain fixed on the topic rather than devolving into personal attack, name calling, and innuendo...

[/QUOTE]
 
Because that is the modus operandi of a certain set of posters here..
[/QUOTE]
 
ad nauseum...........Lunk -
 
Babs said she was ready to throw down - I'm just obliging her.
 
And speaking of work related entitlements - gee, in the old days they called them benefits - anybody notice over the weekend that BOTH the DEMOCRATS and the REPUBLICANS have put 'taxing benefits' on the table.  Yep, your health insurance benefits are about to be taxed.  38% was the number I saw on AOL. 
 
How much is that going to cost us in meds?
 
Pip
ooh.. AOL.. that's a really really good source.. thanks!!!Ms Finacial genius - bet you could figure out how to Google for the info.  Wait, you don't research.
 
LMAO
 
Pip
Hey Pip,
While you are digging back through all those posts find the one where you promised to get those studies for me because I am still waiting for them.
 
Oh, and by the way, if you want to start quoting the Bible, it says, "If you don't work, you don't eat". So in the context of this thread, "If you don't pay for your own health insurance, you won't have any".
 
take care,
reader
Reader, I don't want to be a part of the pissing contest going on here, but I did need to respond to your post.  It is not just a matter of not paying for health insurance.  I am willing to pay for health insurance, and have tried for years to purchase some.  No one will insure me due to preexisting conditions.  It isn't always as simple as people won't pay.  Once you've lost it, your SOL unless you can get it through a spouse or go on public assistance, or can get a job where you can get group coverage.  Hey Reader -
 
I've loaded all my studies into one GIANT new portable hard drive and mail merged them into - well - one giant mess.  But its all there.  So, when I move back to AF I'll have them for you. 
 
In the context of this thread - do you think that's very Christian?  I mean, all these poor people without meds because of the economy?  Because some CEO is trying to save a buck (while not cutting his exhorbinant salery). 
 
Pip
This is the second time I find myself agreeing with Hillhoney.
 
That's scary.
 
Pip
[QUOTE=Pip!]Lunk -[/quote]

Before you tagged me 'troll', now you are are casting aspersions on my intellect by shortening my username to lunk---a stupid person. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. Please remember that I have NOT offered to "throw down" with you.

Yes, I admit to questioning your statistics, but realized that answers were not going to be forthcoming. It was made clear to me that posting off-topic from the opening page of the AP thread was forbidden. I have obliged you and others who are on AP by keeping my distance.

I will not knowingly antagonize you, can you provide me with the same courtesy?

Thanks in advance, Shug
Yes,
 
Pip
I had agreed to do the same, Spelunker...... but as you can see.... she came out of her hole after me.... not the other way around...
i no longer "honor" their thread.......
as long as you don't disagree .... they'll leave you alone..  maybe
I was asking intelligent questions about information posted there and was told in PM that it was ruining the thread... I guess you cannot attempt to find further info.. OR question what has been posted in the holy thread... 
 
[QUOTE=Pip!]Yes,
 
Pip
[/QUOTE] Ow... ow... oww!! I want to work at a Pier 1!  I have never been in one of them there stores. Always wanted to go into one, but Hubby would never let me go in one.
 
 
You'd get a great benefit and could buy all the sale items by hiding them in the back until they were sale items!
 
Pip

Ok, the real point of this thread is that THIS SEGMENT will be on tonight.  For those wanting information about what's happening, or could happen, to sick people in the USA, it's on tonight.

Pip

This was a very interesting program.  Everyone seems to agree we are in crisis, but it all seems to be someone else's fault... and no answers as to what to do.  I am lucky to currently have health insurance, besides my disability, but I know that can change quickly.  I hope we can come to some kind of consensus on this issue to help those that need the help.  I can't imagine having this disease and not being able to get the medications I need. [QUOTE=Pip!]You'd get a great benefit and could buy all the sale items by hiding them in the back until they were sale items!
 
Pip
[/QUOTE]
 
Now there is a thought!
 
Maybe I need to go to work at the homedepot. I can hide carpet and drywall!
 
[QUOTE=waddie]This was a very interesting program.  Everyone seems to agree we are in crisis, but it all seems to be someone else's fault... and no answers as to what to do.  I am lucky to currently have health insurance, besides my disability, but I know that can change quickly.  I hope we can come to some kind of consensus on this issue to help those that need the help.  I can't imagine having this disease and not being able to get the medications I need. [/QUOTE]
 
To me the first solution and among the easiest ones is to seperate the ability to obtain medical insurance from workplace benefits. The workplace being the source of medical insurance is the biggest issue besides cost.  Require employers to raise saleries equal to the companies current share of insurance costs.  Then require each person to obtain insurance on their own.  Every state already requires auto insurance to get your car registered so its not a stretch.   Require insurance companies to publish rates for their products.   Minimum requirements for each insurance package is medicare coverage.  Rates can be set on a sliding scale based on family size and income.    Require insurance companies to insure anyone who applies for their package at their stated rates.  There can be some sort of tax break for companies with a certain percentage of high use customers. 
 
 
Lynn49
Senior Member
  
Originally posted by Pip!

Lynn -
 
Just think, you'd not have had to do with less, nor would you have had to pay off all those bills had the US thought to take care of it's less fortunate.  You'd have been covered and kept more of what you had earned.
 
Jas -
 
I'm not the person that posted about fat before.  You are confusing people.  It seemed to bother Baboon butt then so I used it.  Just giving credit where credit is due.
 
Rincon -
 
I know exactly what you are talking about.  Our insurance has been 'cut' while the CEO's and bigwigs in my husbands Fortune 500 company's hasn't.  Things they used to cover; now they don't.  If he loses his job in the upcoming 'market correction' then neither of us are going to be able to get insurance - because of pre-existing conditions.  Maybe, I'm more compassionate than Babs and crew - I'm realizing that 'there, by the Grace of God, go I".  We followed the 'rules' and planned for retirement - now that's all up in smoke - and its a pretty sure thing what's coming in America's future. 
 
Pip
 
I guess that's the difference between you and me...I don't expect someone else or the government to pay MY bills......
Hello. I have been reading this board for a few years on and off, my dh has RA so he is online all the time gathering information but this statement intrigued us. We moved from USA to the United Kingdom. The reason being was cost of medication. We went live with my sister and I have worked here since arriving ( I am from Northern Ireland) My husband is an American/UK Citizen , always paid his way in life and then got ill and couldnt work. At the time I was ill too so we found ourselves both without a job and no money. We both required extensive medical care and medication that we could not affrord. We had 2 young children. After selling our home and losing everything we had( through debt related illness) my sister suggested we move to the UK. She sent us the airfares as we had virtually nothing left. I recovered in time to start employment but the great thing was that my husband was granted medical care and free Rheumatoid medication. He applied for disability allowance and began a training course to retrain in his field so he could return to work in a different capacity. This cost us nothing. We have since bought a house, my husband's RA is under control and we are living  not just exisiting.
We dont expect something for nothing either Lynn49 but there are times when a helping hand is very much needed. Unfortunately the USA didnt have the helping hand we needed. Im under no doubt had we stayed there we would have been homeless. My children would have been without their parents
 
To me the first solution and among the easiest ones is to seperate the ability to obtain medical insurance from workplace benefits. The workplace being the source of medical insurance is the biggest issue besides cost.  Require employers to raise saleries equal to the companies current share of insurance costs.  Then require each person to obtain insurance on their own.  Every state already requires auto insurance to get your car registered so its not a stretch.   Require insurance companies to publish rates for their products.   Minimum requirements for each insurance package is medicare coverage.  Rates can be set on a sliding scale based on family size and income.    Require insurance companies to insure anyone who applies for their package at their stated rates.  There can be some sort of tax break for companies with a certain percentage of high use customers. 
 
 
[/QUOTE]
 
The biggest problem with an idea like this one, Buckeye, is that it isn't socialized healthcare.  That is clearly what our liberal government wants.  It isn't about getting everyone medical coverage, it's about a government that is greedy for control.   A government who wants it's citizens to be dependant on it for it's basic needs.
[QUOTE=Linncn]
 
The biggest problem with an idea like this one, Buckeye, is that it isn't socialized healthcare.  That is clearly what our liberal government wants.  It isn't about getting everyone medical coverage, it's about a government that is greedy for control.   A government who wants it's citizens to be dependant on it for it's basic needs.
[/QUOTE]
 
We relied on the British government for our basic needs. They dont own us because we did this. They helped us to become an independant family unit again with medical help for a very sick human being.some countries, or parts of some countries (thatareourneighbor) have people waiting TWO YEARS for an MRI!!!
I have definite fears about what may come for those who have chronic and debilitating illnesses that aren't imminently life threatening.......  who determines need???
I've never had a long wait for any procedure I've needed.[QUOTE=kelstev]I've never had a long wait for any procedure I've needed.[/QUOTE]
 
I have a friend who's DH is on a wait list for the MRI.. she lives in Canada.. Not sure where exactly, but it's not a city and she's west coast within driving distance to Washington.. may be an outlying area?  but couldn't this person get his/her MRI somewhere else?  nearer the city...??  nope??
[QUOTE=babs10][QUOTE=kelstev]I've never had a long wait for any procedure I've needed.[/QUOTE]
 
I have a friend who's DH is on a wait list for the MRI.. she lives in Canada.. Not sure where exactly, but it's not a city and she's west coast within driving distance to Washington.. may be an outlying area?  but couldn't this person get his/her MRI somewhere else?  nearer the city...??  nope??
[/QUOTE]
 
Hmm...well..I dunno..all I know is that I've never in my whole life had to wait for any procedure...nor have any of my family or friends.  I also know that I've never had to worry about doctor's app't's, procedures, hospital stays..etc causing any financial problems.  For that I am thankful.
kelstev2009-04-01 06:12:06I would like for Prior Authorizations for meds to be took away. If a Doctor RXs you a med you should be able to get it. That's nice for you Kel, but what about all those folks that DO have to wait?  Where will they go when they can't come here to get the care they need?I really don't know Linncn...all I can talk about is what I've expereinced.  I've never heard of anyone here having problems ...not saying it doesn't happen...just saying I've never had it happen to me or heard of anyone that I know having long waits.They will do what we were forced to do , leave the only home our children had ever known for the sake of having a dad who could function properly. With holding hospital care and medication due to lack of money is the same as being handed a life sentence.
There is so much speculation around the countries that do have socialised health care. I can only speak for Northern Ireland and the NHS in the United Kingdom. My dh has waited no more than 7 weeks for any medical scan, xray or procedure.
[QUOTE=Sandra]We relied on the British government for our basic needs. They dont own us because we did this. They helped us to become an independant family unit again with medical help for a very sick human being.[/QUOTE]
 
?? You are independant because you depend on your government?  Personally, I want my government to stay out of my family unit.  I want them to go back to the job they were originally supposed to do which is basically to provide the infrastructure for me to live my own life.  Without their shadow over me.

Did you read my original posting?  The word "WAS" relied... they helped us when my husband was so ill he couldnt even lift his head. Once he got the medical care he should have got in his home country he became independant again.He now holds a full time job and is an active member of our family. He doesnt rely on the British government to feed and clothe us or house us. The only hold the British government has over us is our Taxes but thats another thread for another day.No, I didn't see your original post.  I just don't understand the mindset that says someone else owes you the things you need.  That you have the right to just take it from them.  If you don't want to share what you've earned with me, I then have the right to just swoop in and help myself.   That's wrong.  It's also wrong to see someone in need and refuse to help if you have the means.  But helping is personal choice.  Not something that the government  should force.Linncn I am in agreement that no one deserves something for just sitting on their behinds with their hands out. Its very prevalent in this country with umemployed youths who leave education and go on the dole( welfare) just because they think the government owe them a living. That is a different thing than being ill and denied medicine due to ill health that is so life destroying it causes you to be laid off from work in a job that you have had for 17 years. Put yourself in this picture. One minute you are a fit healthy working person, 2 children who you love more than anything and a wife you are worried about as she is ill but she is being treated with excellent drugs in good hospitals. Within 2 weeks you are bed ridden, can not even take your self to the toilet or hold a spoon to feed yourself. Your 7 year old son is having to put a bottle in the bed for you to urinate in. You get diagnosed with RA and are seen by a rheumy. You recieve good life changing meds and you go back to work. With in 6 months your employer thinks that he can not keep you on, your savings dwindle due to meds and hospital care, you do not qualify for help. Within another 3 months theres barely any money coming in at all and you sell your house to pay back the bank.Some days theres no money for meds as its a choice between food for the kids or relief from the RA. Your wife is still ill and life is getting worse, a shelter looks like it could be the next step. A saviour in the form of a family member offers you life in another country, the country is offering you free medicines and hospital care, when you are better the country offers you a retraining course so you can go back to work and be part of the human race again. This country is offering your children their  father and mother back again as parents who can look after them , not the other way round.  We are not taking handouts, we never forced the government . We dont claim housing or income benefits, we work due to receiving excellent health care that wasnt available in the USALinncn -

 
How is taking care of the people most unlikely to be able to afford meds 'government control'?  All it means is that when you lose your job, you have a safety net.  It's not like we're all going to be working endlessly with these diseases?  What's the minimum time from a diagnosis of RA to diability?  10 years.
 
Babs -
 
That's an urban legend. 
 
Here's info on HOW it's a media myth.  And just who controls media - would it be the 'sponsors' of all the meds you see on TV?  I've posted time and again how 'sponsors' are involved in medical websites, TV CONTENT, etc.
 
 
Pip
uh no,  it's not an urban legend..   
and Pip.. you're full of yourself.
[QUOTE=babs10]uh no,  it's not an urban legend..   
and Pip.. you're full of yourself.
[/QUOTE]
 
I concur on both accounts.
 
Tink
PIP:
 
http://