OT:Dental work...great! | Arthritis Information

I've been having some issues with tooth sensitivity for a week or so now and finally broke down and went to see a dentist today. He says that I have very mild gingivitis that requires a procedure called root scaling and planing or as he called it a deep tooth cleaning. Has anyone here ever had this procedure done and if so what can I expect? I don't need to worry about stopping remicade as my last infusion was on the 24th and the next is several weeks away. I can stop the MTX no problem as it's not doing squat for me...same as the remicade. The only worry I have is the prednisone and the high dose I'm still on. It can't be stopped and I don't want to let this condition get worse until all that can be done is tooth extraction.

Good lord I feel like a big baby I'm scared crapless!

Bob

Hi Bob!

Don't be scared about the procedure. I had them done all the time for periodontal disease. It's not painful and you'll be a little sore after the procedure, but, when its all over your teeth and gums will feel a LOT better. My new biologic dentist uses this laser wand thingy mostly and then regular tools for the 'hard spots'. Actually, my old non-biologic dentist had that laser thingy at the end. No fuss, no muss.

I don't know if you have to be off Pred tho. Can you arrange it so it's like right after a dose or something and then right back on again? I've never been on such a high dose (just a few packs) so...somebody else is going to have to jump in here and see it they can answer that part.

Another thing you can do is try to find a biologic dentist. I have no idea where you are or how hard it will be to find one. But they do seem to have a lot of autoimmune people and they know how to make sure you don't get sicker and to work around our meds. The one I found in the middle of a corn field (who knew?) asked all kinds of questions about meds on the intake phone call.

Pip

Hey Bob, back in the dark ages, I worked for a periodontist. Pip is right, the scaling is no big deal, deep cleaning really. Your comfort should be at the top of the list, so make sure they know how you feel. Idk about the pred issue, did you talk to him? I would call the office and make sure they know about all the drugs.

FYI, you know that 'webbing' of skin between your pointer finger and your thumb? If your gums are sore and bothering you afterward, rub an ice cube there and... magic! No irritation!

Pip, a biologic dentist? That sounds pretty cool!
Hey Bob!

Good to see you posting.

I've had it done as well and no problems...didn't hurt and I didn't stop my mtx.

good luck

Waddie -

Bologic dentists are the new-fangled dentists that believe that what happens in the mouth determines what happens in the body. When they treat you, they use high powered suction and dental dams to make sure you don't swallow anything that makes you sicker. My PRA came on after dental work and all thru my seeing doc after doc for 2 years to get my diagnosis we kept saying 'its that tooth'. The dentist that caused this said it wasn't him (it was per my research) and sent me for a Cat Scan where the Cat Scan doc said 'if you have any other autoimmune reactions, come back and see me". At that point we were too new to this and were like "???".

Now I know. Sigh.

Anyway, now I won't let any dentist touch me that doesn't adhere to the Huggin's Protocol. Interestingly, when I found that biologic dentist in a corn field, I was told by my regular periodontist that the guy I was going to see was being investigated by the state for 'medical malpractice'. He wasn't because when you get told something like that you call the licensing board. Or at least I did. Seems he was in trouble with taxes. So, I'm seeing Corn Field doc's replacement (because the doc wasn't allowed to practice since that was the agreement with the IRS per the licensing board) and this guy starts telling me of the harassment dentists get for doing procedures like this.

I'm like, "OK, crazy" but then he tells me he's headed to Arizona to film a cavitation (which is an infected but doesn't hurt area where wisdom teeth used to be) and a little bell goes off in my head as I have had this LUMP in the back of my mouth since college when the wisdom teeth come out.

So, I started investigating the dental link - found a ton of stuff that applies to mycoplasma (was a new APer when I found this biologic stuff) and dental work. Realized that lump had to come out. Had all my amalgams removed (no improvement that others claim there but was already on AP and didn't do all within the same month as told to).

And found a ton of Quack warnings about how Huggins aren't all that. And immensely pro-Huggins fanatics that reminded me of APers. Then I started seeing the same 'harrassment' issues of the dentists that I saw of the Lyme doctors.

I saw this last night - http://www.newstimes.com/ci_12005818 - so, you can see this harrassment is 'real'. The filmed cavitation doc did his film (available on Youtube) and moved to Mexico. Hmmmm.

So, right now I'm supposed to be getting my cavitation. Took me a while to find a guy to do it as they're rare. The guy I found runs a FREAKIN' Spa around here. I'm not kidding. This is going to cost us a bundle (with insurance) because this doc said yes, the one was bad, but the other 3 need to be redone too. But, from my research, I'm kind of like 'money-grubbing bastard' but it needs to be done so do it.

The end results is he's warned me. He said the dental insurance is going to turn me down for paying for this. He said to appeal as by the time I need to appeal the pathology report will be in. He says they always pay when they see the pathology report.

We'll see.

Pip

I would like.. and I'm sure others would as well.. to see the cavitation YouTube link..Babs -

My link no longer works and I'm searching for something similar. Here is a link to what I'm talking about with a pretty basic view of the procedure. I have not come to the part where they uses the Cavitat machine on me. This biologic dentist used some sort of Xray machine which put it in Hi-def on the screen. The teeth that were 'normal' had a redish pocket under them with minor yellow spotting. The tooth I've been complaining about for YEARS was green. Big green pocket under where the wisdom tooth used to be.

I asked this doc if that meant I was right, that there was something there. He said we won't know for sure until I get the cavitron (???) done but it looks like it.

Then I kind of broke down and begged him to clean it out, just in case. I mean, I know there is something there - I can feel it.

Get this - sometime ago I must have agreed to a root canal. My dad was always against them and I always refused them. The tooth that went bad and was always being packed in abx was next to where the wisdom tooth was. The other side - the root canal. They sent me to this UCLA dentist to check out the root canal and it needs to be redone.

Yeah, this is gonna cost me. But I really don't care about the money - I want to know what's in there.

Not one of the dentists I've seen has ever said there was anything wrong there - including the dentist who pulled my wisdom teeth. I was sick as a dog after they were pulled and I went back about 2 - 3 weeks later and told him 'you left something in there'. He said he didn't. And this pocket at the back of my mouth continued to grow over the years. I mean, it's freakin' HUGE. And it's right over the salivary glands which is why they sent me for the Cat scan - and why that doc said 'call me if you have any other auto-immune reactions'.

Apparently, there is a huge vein that goes into the body from there - and this is probably the link to heart disease from dental work. Strep and periodontal disease.

Pip

http://www.wholebodymed.com/library_education_details.php?pid=6

[QUOTE=Pip!] He said we won't know for sure until I get the cavitron (???) done but it looks like it. [/quote]

The dental hygienist uses a cavitron in routine prophylaxis; cavitron is sometimes known as ultrasonic scaling technology.

Re: laser prophylaxis. My experience was that is was more effective than the cavitron, was not as painless as promised, and was exorbitantly expensive.

Isn't Cavitat, and the machine used to perform it, ultrasonagraphy? Or am I once again confused?

Edited to add this link about Cavitat ultrasound
Spelunker2009-04-01 12:20:29I really don't know as this is all new, and therefore, Greek to me. I do know that my terminology might be wrong because he corrected it once or twice. What I've learned is from patient websites. LOL

What do I know for sure?

There is something under where that tooth used to be.

It's grown even larger over the years.

When I am starting to get sick, (cold etc) it aches. I mean, ACHES!

This is going to cost me thousands of dollars.

My insurance may not cover it.

You have to be pretty sure something is wrong if you're willing to let some guy cut open your jaw in 4 different areas to clean out something that 'isn't there' according to every other dentist you've ever seen and pay a ton of your personal savings to do it.

The good news is I get some sort of Vitamin C drip during the surgery. Yeah, that makes me want to go thru all this. NOT.

I'm betting on that pathology report. If I'm wrong...oh well, there goes the savings account. If I'm right...one step closer to my cure.

Pip

Jargon and terminology count. IF, big if, what your are referring to is know as cavitational osteopathosis and the theory is that the procedure rectifies a (highly suspect) condition called NICO, neuralgia inducing cavitational osteonecrosis.

An oral pathologist, J.E. Bouquot, D.D.S, coined the terms, and was influential in the biological dentist movement. He runs one of the handful of pathology labs were the bone/tissue/teeth removed in the procedure are tested. Invasive and irreversible surgical procedures...

I wish you the very best of luck with the procedure. I hope you find the relief and the cure you seek.

I too have done my homework on the various procedures. I found then less promising that you do.

Edited to attempt to finish my _thoughts_...my server did an unexpected reboot.
Spelunker2009-04-01 13:08:39It is not totally un heard of root canals having to be redone.what is there.. what you "feel" could be nothing more than scar tissue....

[QUOTE=bob_h76]I've been having some issues with tooth sensitivity for a week or so now and finally broke down and went to see a dentist today. He says that I have very mild gingivitis that requires a procedure called root scaling and planing or as he called it a deep tooth cleaning. Has anyone here ever had this procedure done and if so what can I expect? I don't need to worry about stopping remicade as my last infusion was on the 24th and the next is several weeks away. I can stop the MTX no problem as it's not doing squat for me...same as the remicade. The only worry I have is the prednisone and the high dose I'm still on. It can't be stopped and I don't want to let this condition get worse until all that can be done is tooth extraction.

Good lord I feel like a big baby I'm scared crapless!

Bob

[/QUOTE]

Bob,

It's a piece of cake there is something there.

I'd never heard of root canals having to be redone. Frankly, the more I researched this the more I'm more into 'pull the frackin' tooth' because its waaaay less expensive....'

Yep, highly controversial and yes on NICO - which I didn't know about until I posted that link. I was intrigued to see osteonecrosis. Isn't that the same thing people on immunesuppressants and/or Fosomax get?

Pip

Doctors have bills and need to make a profit. They have high liability cost and the overhead of running an office along with equipment and materials. The VAST majority of Doctors do not need to run SCAMS to make money.

The wife of a Dentist,

Tina

Some pubmed stuff -

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19063908?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Guess this is the original research -

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1545963?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=4&log$=relatedreviews&logdbfrom=pubmed

Yep, slim pickin's.

Pip

I'm not against profit. And I won't know if it's a scam about the other 3 teeth until after the pathology report.

Here's my question. If the pathology report is clean I'm assuming its a scam.

But if it's NOT clean - then I'm assuming...what...that most dentists can't 'believe' me when I say something is there? Or that they have no idea how to evaluate what has to be a relatively common complaint? What is this going to say about 'regular' dentists?

Pip

If you are determined to have this procedure done, allow me to suggest that you find out as much about the pathology lab where the specimens will be sent as is humanely possible. In at least some few cases there -seems- to be collusion between the surgical and pathology services.

I would insist, no, I would demand that the specimens be divided into at least three portions and sent to different labs of my choosing.

I would also pay close attention to some of the law suits that have been settled against "biological dentists".

In the end, all any of us can be is be informed and made decisions based on the best available knowledge.

Best wishes, Shug
I was advised against having it done if it can wait by the RD today. She says that the dose of pred I'm on is still too high to risk anything working it's way into the bloodstream from the procedure. What I'll do is go back to the dentist and ask if it can possibly be put off for a little while longer. If so then obviously it will wait. If not then I guess I'll have no choice but to risk it.

Shug? (is that the correct name?)

Collusion - you mean like with our studies with 'predetermined' results? Sorry, couldn't resist. Actually - that's a darn good thought about split sampling. Since I'm in for a penny, might as well be in for a pound.

Also, I'm very aware of the lawsuits - especially since Aetna settled. I just found it entirely waaaay to amusing that they were accused of racketeering by Quackwatch/Aetna! Seriously, how funny is that? For those not aware, Quackwatch was busted in Cali and in another state for RICO AND for offering to give favorable reviews to 'science' for 'reimbursement'. Damn, that's funny!

Ya know, all we have are our hunches. Mine says there is something in there; something that I said at the time caused my RA. The only way I'm going to know for sure is a pathology (or two) report.

What scares me to death is the info in Pubmed. They've found everything in there from non-hodgekins lymphoma to the stuff that causes ovarian cancer.

Bob -

Sorry to have usurped your thread. OK, more wacky new age stuff, but I bought myself years of avoiding dentists with gargling/swishing hydrogen peroxide and sometimes brushing by putting a toothbrush in HP and then dipping the wet head in good old fashioned baking soda. If you swish HP around every 2 hours for a couple of days, the pain goes away. Cheap, quick, and buys you time.

Hugs and more hugs,

Pip

[QUOTE=Pip!]I'm not against profit. And I won't know if it's a scam about the other 3 teeth until after the pathology report.

Here's my question. If the pathology report is clean I'm assuming its a scam.

Pip

[/QUOTE]

I don't know PIP...you tell me what does it say about a regular. common, everyday, run of the mill dentist?

What if the report show 2 teeth bad and the third ok? Is it a still a scam? I think my problem with much of what you say is all in your delivery..you come over as being so superior, and lack the respect that those "regular" Docotrs deserve.

Doctors do not SCAM their patients...really.

Sorry bob.

Talk to your Dentist and Rheumy....you will have to make the choice with the information you receive. I hope they make it easier for you to chose what is best for you.

Good Luck with your choice,

Tina

Pip...no worries. I enjoyed reading this thread.

You know I was actually told by someone last night that some...not all...dentists offices will tell you that you need procedures like this because it's an easy way for them to make ,600. Considering that the office I visited (my regular dentist was out of town and I thought this might be an emergency) charges 0 per quadrant and divides the cleaning into two sessions that's a healthy chunk-0-change. And I have zero coverage with my insurance for dental work so this is all out of pocket expense. I think what I'll do is go to get the opinion of my regular dentist on this matter and then make a decision on what to do. He's been at it for a loooong time and would pull no punches on if this is needed now or can wait until maybe I can lower my pred dose. The other meds is just a simple matter of holding them for a bit until the procedure is done and healing is finished.

thanks again all

Bob

Thanks Bob -

Seriously, think about the Baking soda (new box of Arm&Hammer, what a , and a small bottle of Hydrogen Peroxide at the CVS is 59 cents. Warning, your mouth is going to fizz like...hell...and in a couple of days, the pain is GONE. It will buy you time and it will take away the pain. That absessed tooth? That's how I controlled it. Not the best way to have handled it...but it lasted a LOT longer than any dentist thought it would. Of course, now I wish I'd have just pulled it...but hey...you already HAVE RA. ;-)

Tink -

Yes, doctors AND dentists scam their patients. They have bills and they have overhead. Their kid needs braces, their mortgage payment is due...it's life. Any time doing a procedure means an increase in income, there is a question of whether or not it is necessary. This is why every patient advocate group suggests getting a second opinion. My BFF just was told she needed back surgery by a doc who refused to send her for PT but wrote on her forms that 'patient refused'. If that isn't a scam, I don't know what is.

Pip

bob.

I've had the scaling done.. it seems that w/ my sjogrens tartar seems to build up and he will need to get down just beneath the gum line and scrape.

I have bled during and after this procedure.. and there have been times of tenderness.

My teeth feel incredibly great when it's done and the cleaning is done........ slippery clean!!

if your RD asks you to wait til you taper down on the pred... he must have good reason. I don't use pred so I wouldn't be familiar.

best to you!!

I have been going thru dental hell too. Also a bit different than yours. It started with an abcess on a crowned tooth requiring a root canal. Got ot the specialist who started the root canal and then decided the root had a vertical fracture and could not be finished. He was very dramanic and threw a tamtrum--yes--he really did--and said the tooth would have to come out. To make this shorter, the tooth was pulled--not fun--and they did a bone graft at the same time. That had to heal. Then just recently they put the metal post in for the implant. Not exactly fun either. I did not change my meds during this whole procedure and they did rx an antibotic. I have been healing very well and have no adverse effects of the drugs. I asked if there was any problem with what I am taking and they said no. I do not take prendisone so that was not an issue.

By the way, the root canal specialist did say they do a lot of root canals a second time--esp. the older root canals cause before the computerized ones they do now--they guessed where the root was -- now they can see them better. Besides they like expensive cars and homes and need the income .

LMAO -

There is something on Youtube about infections around crowns. Not what I was looking for but...

That guessing where the root was, that just freaks me out.

Pip

[QUOTE=Pip!]

Tink -

Pip

[/QUOTE]

I totally disagree with you. ...I don't think that is a scam. I would bet there is a diffrent answer to your friends PT. As far as teeth cleaning goes...

If you brush your teeth and FLOSS everytime you eat..you could SAVE $$$$$$$$$$$$$ You would NOT need to have your teeth cleaned by a Dentist office at all...

Doesn't sound like a scam to me........

Tink -

What is falsifying records for if not a scam? Scam is a much nicer word than 'criminal'. I told her to report him...she didn't...just went out and got a different doc who let her have some PT. So the next patient that goes in can't even see if there were complaints.

The question is - why did the surgeon do that?

Pip

in all walks of life there are those who try to take advantage.......

point is, Pip.. don't lump them all together in one package... that's one surgeon...... others are not that deceiving..

stereotyping is the same as bigotry IMO...

and Tink...you don't have to defend your DH.. we know he's a good dentist...
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