I'm sorry for the suicide, but if you choose to do this, don't inconvenience thousands of other people.It also tramatizes the engineer who is driving the train and can in NO WAY stop a many ton train.This has been happening at our local train station a lot. It's scary that so many people are choosing to end their lives and choosing to do it in this manner. I was very much affected when I read about a local 19 year old boy who had been struggling with anxiety and depression since he was 15 and he stood in front of the train and took his life. The parent's wrote an article about how they had sought help for him since the onset and none of the programs available and not all the love in the world helped. The picture posted was of a handsome young man who looked like he could have the world by the tail. The fact that his soul was so tortured that he resorted to this left me with chills. I felt so upset I actually cried. I think because I have children around his age. Within a course of a month besides him I have read about a 42 year old man and a 62 year old man who did the same thing in the same place. To me it reads like a horror novel.Yes, it is horrible.
I am all too aware of how it is for the engineer... My husband worked as an Inspector on Amtrak train lines here when he was younger.... up close and personal takes on a new meaning..
I'm sure their only thought is to end their torment.and ours should be to hope the soul is freed of it's pain.....A professor once said that no one chooses suicide: rather suicide happens when an individual’s pain far exceeds the recourses that are available for coping with that pain. Suicidal tendencies do not mean that the sufferer
for/of coping.
Whatever the means of suicide people are inconvenienced and traumatized; family, friends, acquaintances, anyone involved with the physical act of suicide, the emergency medical workers, hospital personnel, and law enforcement.
At least sometimes, how we react to suicide is a reflection of our own deep seated emotional state and is a mirror of our own fears and our own anger.
I cannot even begin to image the despair that brings an individual to this point, and my heart aches for each one who could no longer cope.
I removed my original comment because I made it out of anger and with nasty sarcasm. Shame on me.
[QUOTE=wanttobeRAfree]I'm sure their only thought is to end their torment.[/QUOTE]
I can empathize with the suicidal people. Try to imagine for a moment just how depressed and hopeless it must feel to be ready to end your life forever because you just can't hurt anymore! (Physically, mentally, spiritually or whatever the case is.)
Then try to picture yourself actually ending your life. Can you slit your wrists? Can you watch your blood drain from your body, all the while fighting the urge to help yourself? How about hanging? Can you put the noose around your neck, and more importantly...can you step off the chair? Could you run a hose from your exhaust pipe into the car where you sit waiting to pass out from the fumes? How can you stand in front of a train knowing it cannot stop?
I know I've been depressed and suicidal at times. When I have "planned" or imagined how I would commit suicide; I never gave a thought to who I would inconvenience. (Just for the record; I've never harmed myself...just thought about it.) If I can't care about myself; how do you expect me to care about you or anyone else?
A 2 hour inconvenience...WOW! Perhaps you could have spent that time wondering why the poor soul was so lost that they felt there was no other option but to die! How sad I feel for both of you.
[QUOTE=NJ Marie]I can empathize with the suicidal people. Try to imagine for a moment just how depressed and hopeless it must feel to be ready to end your life forever because you just can't hurt anymore! (Physically, mentally, spiritually or whatever the case is.)
Then try to picture yourself actually ending your life. Can you slit your wrists? Can you watch your blood drain from your body, all the while fighting the urge to help yourself? How about hanging? Can you put the noose around your neck, and more importantly...can you step off the chair? Could you run a hose from your exhaust pipe into the car where you sit waiting to pass out from the fumes? How can you stand in front of a train knowing it cannot stop?
I know I've been depressed and suicidal at times. When I have "planned" or imagined how I would commit suicide; I never gave a thought to who I would inconvenience. (Just for the record; I've never harmed myself...just thought about it.) If I can't care about myself; how do you expect me to care about you or anyone else?
A 2 hour inconvenience...WOW! Perhaps you could have spent that time wondering why the poor soul was so lost that they felt there was no other option but to die! How sad I feel for both of you.
excellent points, NJMarie...... excellent.Anytime I am stuck in traffic, I try to remember that somebody is having a much worse day than I am...[QUOTE=rocckyd]Anytime I am stuck in traffic, I try to remember that somebody is having a much worse day than I am...[/QUOTE]
me too, rocckyd!! and I always carry a good book! Wasted time makes me the fool.
I remember after my husband died 25 years ago standing at the station as the express train flew past. It was like a suction was coming from the rails pulling me towards it - sometimes people approached me and asked if I was ok.
A similar effect can happen at sea, if you gaze down at the ocean from the deck for a long time, even if not depressed you can feel like jumping in. Or having a gun in the house at the wrong time (I had my husband's rifle removed by a friend very soon after his death).
[QUOTE=babs10]
yes.. especially the dead person and his/her family....... how insensitive to this person,s pain and fight in life.........
[/QUOTE]
This could have been a great discussion to allow people to open up and talk about how bad things can get in their lives with depression especially since so many of us have experienced it. You could have left it at that Babs. But then of course....this is not a support forum. Dang, how stupid of me.
lorster... good try to look compassionate and caring....
I'm sure you read all the posts and saw that is exactly what it did end up being... but not a vent thread as was originally intended..
You are as transparent as a window.
Lorster - Did you read the initial post? It wasn't started to generate discussion that was supportive of people dealing with depression. I took it as an insensitive comment by one person who was bothered that someone messed up her commute. Those that posted after the initial post (Babs included) focused on the deceased and family, not the inconvenience of commuters.
Loser,
I thought you were leaving? You can't get on any thread without spewing your hatred, can you?
Phats
I am absolutely appalled at this comment. I hope you never find yourself in the position this poor person was in.
[QUOTE=Jan Lucinda]It is a major inconvenience for MANY people.[/QUOTE]
I think the felt inconvenience and the suicide are both signs of selfishness. It's selfish to take one's own life and it's selfish to fret about someone's death delaying one's journey. I'd consider myself fortunate for the opportunity to complain; the dead person may have found themselves in a place without that opportunity.
I think that Jan's original post sounds bad, but I bet there wasn't one person on that train that did not think (at least for a second and then correct themselves) Sweet. Now I'm gonna be late.
It's in our nature to be selfish. Unselfishness is often a choice we make, not a feeling we have.
Linncn2009-06-17 18:55:35
[QUOTE=Linncn]
I think that Jan's original post sounds bad, but I bet there wasn't one person on that train that did not think (at least for a second and then correct themselves) Sweet. Now I'm gonna be late.
Very well put Linncn and Bodak. I often see where someone has taken their own life, especialy a young person, and think how sad that they were not able to see the light at the end of the tunnel but also I think it selfish that they were unable to see the damage they are doing to those left behind. Probably when they are so deep into depression they cannot see any answer to their problem.
We all have a little bit different take on this situation.
Pat
TeedOff2009-06-17 20:31:58[QUOTE=Jan Lucinda]I took the train Monday to see my AP doctor and the return was 2 hours late due to the fact that someone did a suicide by train and it held up all the other passenger and freight trains for 2 hours. Too bad this is done. I had a train held up because of this about 6 years ago also.[/QUOTE]
Would you like to share how you're doing after your visit with your AP doctor? This is an RA support forum after all. Maybe you could post it on the AP thread instead. Lindy
[QUOTE=babs10][QUOTE=rocckyd]Anytime I am stuck in traffic, I try to remember that somebody is having a much worse day than I am...[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]
I'll leave here when you shut your fat ugly pie hole.
lorster2009-06-17 22:52:31I think suicide is the ultimately selfish act. In this case, the thoughtless cruelty to the suicide's family was compounded by involving the engineer and inconveniencing everyone else on the train.
If a person wants to kill themselves, they should use a bit of decency and do it in such a way that it won't hurt others, and that their family can at least think it MIGHT have been an accident.
I don't blame the original poster at all for her irritation. I reserve my sympathy for the family left behind and those of us who keep toughing it out every day.Bluehour- Wow - I'm speechless.
Suicide isn't an act of selfishness..its an act of desperation from people who are so far down in the deep hole of dark and cold that they can't see any other way. Its a very sad situation for everyone involvedI think we could go back and forth regarding suicide. Bascially, I think it comes down to your own personal experience with it. It is a shocking act-for all involved. It has hit very close to home for me and initially, I found it a selfish act as well. But, over time (an counseling) I realized the state that the person was in. Thankfully, most of us will never get to that point.
I don't blame people for how they feel-it is all their perspective. Over the years of teaching, we have had a few suicides. When we talk to the students-they have the exact same reactions that are here on the board. It's an emotional issue, so expect a lot of strong reactions. you're right Rocky.
I worked in hotels which are a popular places for suicides. We saw all kinds from jumpers to guns, pills or hanging. I will admit my first comments were usually along the lines of "did they pay for the room" and "how long will the room be out of order' maybe it was a coping mechanism so I didn't think about the person..or the poor housekeeper (and its always a housekeeper) who found the body
[QUOTE=buckeye]
I worked in hotels which are a popular places for suicides.
[/QUOTE]
I've often wondered why hotels seem to be a choice for some. Maybe to protect family members from finding them?
[QUOTE=kelstev][QUOTE=buckeye]
I worked in hotels which are a popular places for suicides.
[/QUOTE]
I've often wondered why hotels seem to be a choice for some. Maybe to protect family members from finding them?
[/QUOTE]
probably plus I think there is something impersonal about hotel roomsI work with suicidal kids every day at work. I don't know how many of them have stood on the train tracks and jumped aside at the last moment. One day they will not jump aside. These kids are in pain and torment and can't see any other way out, whether its in front of a train, cutting their wrists or hanging or overdose or any combination of the above. The trauma that these kids experience in some cases is unimaginable, our clincians work hard to help but don't always win. These kids are usually between 14 and 18, they should have their whole lives ahead of them, but just can't do it. It's tragic. It happens. They aren't thinking about inconveniencing people, they are thinking about all the pain being gone. So might we if we were in that much pain.
[QUOTE=pammy416]I work with suicidal kids every day at work. I don't know how many of them have stood on the train tracks and jumped aside at the last moment. One day they will not jump aside. These kids are in pain and torment and can't see any other way out, whether its in front of a train, cutting their wrists or hanging or overdose or any combination of the above. The trauma that these kids experience in some cases is unimaginable, our clincians work hard to help but don't always win. These kids are usually between 14 and 18, they should have their whole lives ahead of them, but just can't do it. It's tragic. It happens. They aren't thinking about inconveniencing people, they are thinking about all the pain being gone. So might we if we were in that much pain. [/QUOTE]
Bless you, Pam Maybe people hurt so much emotionally because they spend way too much time focused on themselves and whatever hurts them. Does counseling ever involve asking these people to step outside of their own personal hurt and think and do for others?
When I was 20, my best friend's older sister put a shotgun in her mouth. Her 15 year old daughter found her body lying on a mattress. Bone, hair, brain and blood lying everywhere else. The emotional trauma she put this girl and her other two young children through, not to mention the rest of her family........I honestly don't know how someone could do that to people they say they love.
[QUOTE=kelstev][QUOTE=buckeye]
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Linncn] Maybe people hurt so much emotionally because they spend way too much time focused on themselves and whatever hurts them. Does counseling ever involve asking these people to step outside of their own personal hurt and think and do for others?
[/QUOTE]
Linncn. The definition of depression is anger turned inward. It is very hard for a severely depressed person to look beyond their own despair and focus on anything else. I don't think any of us truly understand this until we have been in this deep pit. I have never been there but I have talked to many many people about their depression and there seems to be a similarity in what they say. It really does require a lot of therapy and medications to find a balance for them. These people are all very caring individuals, in fact, they care too much at times which is part of the turmoil for them. [quote]"I honestly don't know how someone could do that to people they say they love.[/quote]
I don't think you understand the mind set of the suicidal individual. They
CAN'T think of anyone else. I asked my daughter many times, "How could you even think of doing this to me and the people who love you?" She told me she wasn't doing anything to me. She was trying to make her pain go away. She wanted her mind to stop playing her thoughts over and over like a broken tape recorder. She wanted to stop hurting, crying, feeling what she was feeling.
She said she honestly didn't give much thought to the people she would leave behind because her mind was so focused on her pain and anger that she had no time to think of anything else. She could not make her mind think of what she would leave behind. She said it was like when you have a really bad headache or toothache, how you can't concentrate on even menial tasks, because it hurts so badly. Multiply the toothache by 1,000 fold and you might have a small part of what she was feeling.
She was getting counseling throughout the whole ordeal. It didn't help her at all. The Army has some pretty messed up ideas about how to treat a soldier having mental problems. They gave her a bottle of sleeping pills and punished her for being sick.
[QUOTE=Bluehour]I think suicide is the ultimately selfish act. In this case, the thoughtless cruelty to the suicide's family was compounded by involving the engineer and inconveniencing everyone else on the train.
If a person wants to kill themselves, they should use a bit of decency and do it in such a way that it won't hurt others, and that their family can at least think it MIGHT have been an accident.
I don't blame the original poster at all for her irritation. I reserve my sympathy for the family left behind and those of us who keep toughing it out every day.[/QUOTE]
Thank you. Very well said.
I can certainly understand that someone who has lost a loved one to suicide would have a wide range of emotions that they would have to deal with. They would definitely need counseling to come to terms with those feelings. I would feel for them as deeply as I feel for someone who was so tortured that they commit suicide. However as a stranger I do not feel angry or inconvenienced over someone's desperate attempt to find peace.
In a lessor instance when stuck in traffic due to an auto accident I say a prayer for those involved and thank God it's not me.
FYI-
It wasn't one train that was delayed. It was several passenger and freight trains causing stress to the engineer, many Amtrak workers who had to deal with frustrated passengers and many passengers and delayed freight.
It is sad this person was desparate and suicidal, but if he/she choose suicide, it could have been done differently.
[QUOTE=NJ Marie][quote]"I honestly don't know how someone could do that to people they say they love.[/quote]
"I don't think you understand the mind set of the suicidal individual. They
CAN'T think of anyone else."
I realize this. I don't understand it and I guess I can't because to this point my brain has not worked in a way that tells me that I just need to die. I do feel compassion for people who believe that there is no other way. It's sad to know there are people all around who find no joy at all in life, and see no way of ever experiencing it. But even though I feel for these people, I cannot relate to feeling that way. Everything in me tells me to persevere, that life is to be cherished and fought for.
Linncn2009-06-18 10:41:24[QUOTE=Jan Lucinda]FYI-
It wasn't one train that was delayed. It was several passenger and freight trains causing stress to the engineer, many Amtrak workers who had to deal with frustrated passengers and many passengers and delayed freight.
It is sad this person was desparate and suicidal, but if he/she choose suicide, it could have been done differently.
[/QUOTE]
oh my.. all these people were inconvenienced....
who cares??? Someone took their life.!!. YES, the world should stand still and maybe take a look around and see if MAYBE there is someone you know who is that saddened... or desperate...
some people take this heed to see if there someone in YOUR Life that may need a pick up? a hug?
and then .... there are those that bitch.
Personally I have felt the same as you Linncn. My belief was that if you end your own life you will be returned to the earth instead of going to the after life because you have not finished the lessons you were supposed to learn. You would then have to go through everything you had already been through and had to progress through what ever you hadn't made it through before. (I don't know why I thought this- maybe I read this somewhere)
Anyway- there came a time when I was in so much pain during my onset and I could get no relief. None of my medications were working, I was getting worse instead of better. The smallest things were such a challenge and so painful. Every night I hoped that the next day there would be a change for the better but there wasn't. My family members were not the nuturing types and it even got to the point of a certain someone looking at me like they were disgusted. I prayed and prayed but nothing changed. Guess what- I wanted to die. I think it is a good thing that I was so weak and that my hands were so useless that I had no way to kill myself. But I think I got close enough to the deepsest darkest despair to relate to someone who has gone through with it.
WTB~ There were times during my first horrific flare up that I thought that if this was how the rest of my life was going to be, I'd rather just die. But a serious consideration of suicide was never on the table. I felt more like, "please God, just take me now". You won't take it the wrong way if I tell you that I'm glad you were too messed up to act on your wish to end it all, I hope. Better that you would have never felt that kind of pain though.
Thank you so much for sharing that story SnowOwl. It is very powerful! What's that old saying...Walk a mile in my shoes....It does seem that there is a lack of empathy and compassion from some people.
The definition of "compassion" in the dictionary is very short. It simply says that compassion means sympathetic consciousness of others' distress along with a desire to alleviate it. In my opinion, everyone would be wise to keep that in mind...........
Linncn- I'm sure God's hand was in the mix so that I would not be able to do what I wanted to do. He has much more for me to accomplish.
The definition of "compassion" in the dictionary is very short. It simply says that compassion means sympathetic consciousness of others' distress along with a desire to alleviate it. In my opinion, everyone would be wise to keep that in mind...........
[/QUOTE]
SnowOwl....
Lynn... good point!!
wantto!!
I feel so very bad for your nephew and others like him, Pammy.
[QUOTE=babs10] [QUOTE=Jan Lucinda]FYI-
[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]
Is this yet another attempt to turn a good topic into a brawl?Marie and SnowOwl - thanks for sharing your stories. I'm glad the outcome was good for both of them and they managed to not follow thru. Marie - I hope your daughter continues to get better each day.
Pammy - I'm thankful that there are people like you helping teenagers in trouble. It must be a very difficult, but at the same time rewarding job.
sorry all, have not worked for several months, needed some extra money. :)
Thank you for your stories. I think sharing these stories somehow makes this thread more relevent to each of our lives. As a surgical nurse and the daughter of a suicidal parent I've seen and been involved with more suicides and attempts than I care to share with others. All of you are brave that shared your stories and tears with us. With compassion one should want to help to alleviate the pain of the person who's suffering. Without that want then there's no real compassion.
According to the Dali Lama, The Benefits of Developing Compassion. Almost every religion practices compassion, it is the one common thread through all religions. Even the religions that are felt to be violent, there's still compassion practiced within.
Benefits
Why develop compassion in your life? Well, there are scientific studies that suggest there are physical benefits to practicing compassion — people who practice it produce 100 percent more DHEA, which is a hormone that counteracts the aging process, and 23 percent less cortisol — the “stress hormone.”
But there are other benefits as well, and these are emotional and spiritual. The main benefit is that it helps you to be more happy, and brings others around you to be more happy. If we agree that it is a common aim of each of us to strive to be happy, then compassion is one of the main tools for achieving that happiness. It is therefore of utmost importance that we cultivate compassion in our lives and practice compassion every day.
[QUOTE=Jan Lucinda]I took the train Monday to see my AP doctor and the return was 2 hours late due to the fact that someone did a suicide by train and it held up all the other passenger and freight trains for 2 hours. Too bad this is done. I had a train held up because of this about 6 years ago also.[/QUOTE]
You have got to be the most insensitive self absorbed person on the planet!
Sometimes the suicide victim, in choosing a public death, seeks through death what they could not get in life - for someone to acknowledge their existence.
[QUOTE=SnowOwl][QUOTE=JasmineRain]Sometimes the suicide victim, in choosing a public death, seeks through death what they could not get in life - for someone to acknowledge their existence. [/QUOTE]
When we were on a trip back to Indiana, I had been driving most of the day, it was very hot and we came to a conplete stand still outside the little town of dupont, In. we cut the key off and waited a good 20mins. them we got to move all the way up to the flager and she stoped us. I was mad. I said why us can't you let one more go. She looked at me and started crying, she said they were trying to get her coworker out from under a trailer, and they didn't know if she was going to make it. they were working on the road and a driver didn't want to wait his turn and try to go around traffic lost control and hit the worker and his u haul type trailer turned over on her. I started crying too and praying. Since then I keep my mouth shut when in a back up of traffic. I was very inconvenience, it made our supper very late and getting there even later, but someone didn't get to go home or eat supper that night. and I never found out if the lady died, because we went on down the road. We're seen a lot of dead people on the road, we travel a lot. When I was 9 I seen 2 men whe had their heads tore up, brains and gore all over the place, it makes you sick, takes a long time before you get a good nights sleep. what ever the reason, it effects a lot of people, think about the cops and Ents that has to clean it up. The family and friends. and yes the people just passing thur.Every one of you on this thread are GOD loving, GOD fearing people. What happened in church last Sunday that would cause you to treat your fellow women like this? I think any of you that has made a negative comment towards Jan need to go to church on Sunday and ask for forgiveness because it is definitely warranted in this situation. And Babs, don't waste your time. You are going to HELL. There is no hope for you.
Edited for spelling.
[QUOTE=SnowOwl]
Do not judge so that you will not be judged. For in the way
you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will
be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck that is in your
brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or
how can you say to your brother, "Let me take the speck out of your
eye," and behold, the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first
take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take
the speck out of your brother's eye. Matthew 7:1-6
Just in case you are confused, here's the interpretation:
It does not mean we are to suspend our critical faculties. It does not
mean we are not to discern what is right or wrong in our lives or in
the lives of others.What is does mean is that we are not to have, as John Stott said, a
"censorious spirit" whereby we squelch the spirit of another or become
critical of others in order to lift ourselves higher.We are all entitled to our opinions, including the OP. She stated hers, we stated ours.
Nothin to see here ...move along now.
Lorster, she expressed absolutely no remorse for this person who committed suicide, she was INCONVENIENCED, that is all she cared about.
My best friends sister committed suicide 9 years ago this fall. She went up into the attic of her parents house and shot herself. To this day we dont know why she did it. She was a beautiful girl who had everything to live for. Or at least we thought she did.
No one knows what was going through that persons mind when he/she jumped in front of that train and no one should judge them or consider a persons taking their life an inconvenience. I am sorry but her comment was very insensitive and she is in general a very cold uncaring person as is evidenced by her involvement on this board. She is also the same person that wanted to spear seagulls by the way because they were bothering her and applauds all sorts of devices that are used against birds in general.
True Maria... True.
I hardly worry about your interpretation of me, lorster...... you do not know me.
Loser,
Go AWAY, you leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth with your filth!
[QUOTE=lorster]Every one of you on this thread are GOD loving, GOD fearing people. What happened in church last Sunday that would cause you to treat your fellow women like this? I think any of you that has made a negative comment towards Jan need to go to church on Sunday and ask for forgiveness because it is definitely warranted in this situation. And Babs, don't waste your time. You are going to HELL. There is no hope for you.
Edited for spelling. Do not judge so that you will not be judged. For in the way
you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will
be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck that is in your
brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or
how can you say to your brother, "Let me take the speck out of your
eye," and behold, the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first
take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take
the speck out of your brother's eye. Matthew 7:1-6Just in case you are confused, here's the interpretation:
It does not mean we are to suspend our critical faculties. It does not
mean we are not to discern what is right or wrong in our lives or in
the lives of others.What is does mean is that we are not to have, as John Stott said, a
"censorious spirit" whereby we squelch the spirit of another or become
critical of others in order to lift ourselves higher.We are all entitled to our opinions, including the OP. She stated hers, we stated ours.Nothin to see here ...move along now.
[/QUOTE]
Thank you for that quote. [QUOTE=babs10]
True Maria... True.
[/QUOTE]
Babs, I do not want to know you. I have met plenty of your type which led me to the way I believe now. Trust me, the judgement of others that takes place in this forum is appalling on so many different levels. And I'm made out to be the bad guy here. No, don't worry, I've read many of your posts and have formed a valid opinion. [QUOTE=NJ Marie]
It does not mean we are to suspend our critical faculties. It does not mean we are not to discern what is right or wrong in our lives or in the lives of others.
What is does mean is that we are not to have, as John Stott said, a "censorious spirit" whereby we squelch the spirit of another or become critical of others in order to lift ourselves higher.[/QUOTE]
As in your post NJ Marie, Jan did not give anyone permission to judge her either but everyone did.
Whether I agree or disagree with Jan, I do believe she has a right to say it and everyone has a riight to disagree but it is the way you disagree. There is this "HOLIER THAN THOU" attitude that if you really zing it to her that that will make you feel somehow superior. I don't think it does. I think it should make you feel bad just as you felt bad for the man who jumped in front of the train and to attack anyone who comes to her defense is just as sensless as this continuing argument.
TeedOff2009-06-19 08:48:42A name and a face to suicide.
[QUOTE=lorster] [QUOTE=babs10]
True Maria... True.
I hardly worry about your interpretation of me, lorster...... you do not know me.
[/QUOTE]
Babs, I do not want to know you. I have met plenty of your type which led me to the way I believe now. Trust me, the judgement of others that takes place in this forum is appalling on so many different levels. And I'm made out to be the bad guy here. No, don't worry, I've read many of your posts and have formed a valid opinion. [/QUOTE]
and I you.
[QUOTE=Spelunker]
A name and a face to suicide. [/QUOTE]
NJ Marie wrote:[quote]A 2 hour inconvenience...WOW! Perhaps you could have spent that time
wondering why the poor soul was so lost that they felt there was no
other option but to die! How sad I feel for both of you.[/quote]
Care to show me where I cast judgment on the OP to make myself feel superior? Was it where I said I feel bad for both of you? That is empathy; not judgment. I do feel bad for people who cannot empathize for less fortunate people than themselves. That does not make me judgmental, it makes me compassionate.
Given the circumstances, I think 2 hours out of a lifetime is but a drop in the bucket. Yes, it makes me sad that the OP chose to feel inconvenienced, rather than sad for the person who died.
On a side note, yes the OP IS indeed entitled to feel that way and to post her feelings. Just the same as I am entitled to feel and post my views. I'm not judging the OP, only she needs to worry about how she judges herself. I am simply stating my opposite opinion. I think lorster went judgmental when she tried to throw God into the mix to chastise me (and other posters) for our views.
No NJ Marie, I was not judging you. You have posted here 30 times. Those that I judged, know who they are. I was making a point and hopefully they got it. They are the ones that say...Bless you, and I will pray for you in one post, and then, tell someone they are crazy and filthy in another. To be honest NJ Marie, your post yesterday about your daughter moved me to tears. Do not judge me as you just did above. You do not know me, or my history, only what you have read from a few on this board. If you read their words, it speaks volumes for what kind of people they are. You have no idea who I am. Very few on this board, really do. They are the ones I keep in contact with by other means. Please open your mind and really read every post carefully and come to your own conclusions. When i wrote the supposed judgmental post, it was not to chastise you, it was to bring to these peoples attention that they are servants of their God, and they should live by the words they preach. It is important to be a good person no matter what you believe. I do not think many people really understand what suicide is all about. Look at insurance companies, many do not pay out if death is by suicide. How understanding of this situation is that. Many view it as a sin. Is that judgemental? Think about it. It depends on how it is viewed by those you have grown up with. My church happens to view it as a sin. Is this wrong? Yes, I think so. I'm not judging you by what other people post, lorster. I learned long ago to decide how I feel about posters based only on what they, themselves post. I am not a sheeple who blindly follows the masses. I read, digest and contemplate how I feel about you based on a totally of your posts. I have gone back and read from the 250th page trying to "get to know" the regular posters here. (And oh, how I was tempted to bump threads that were over a year old with my views! LOL)
I have been doing forum work (Moderator & Administrator) for the past 7 years, and learned early on that you can't judge a person by 1, or even a few posts. This is one of the hardest mediums in which to truly get to know a person and how they really feel and act. No voice inflection, body language or facial expressions to give you clues as to how that person really feels. Then you have the trolls who will say anything for shock value. (Not saying this is you in particular, just saying they do exist.)
Sorry I took offense to your posting, as I thought it was indeed directed at me.
I have a friend whose son killed himself. He inflicted his death on a whole group of children who were in the vicinity. The mother of this young boy has come to terms with his death but can not come to terms with the fact that these little children are so traumatised by something her son did. She made a public apology in the church hall to the families of these litte ones and has paid for them to see a counsellor. Maybe one day she will grieve for her son but at the moment she is filled with an intense rage toward him. So the view of suicide comes to all of us differently even on a personal level.oh Sandra... How horribly difficult for that mother..... and the children.Well I'm going to own up to the fact that I was very angered by the insensitivity I felt Jan presented in this thread. I posted quickly with anger with my own insensitivity with a very sarcastic remark. I deleted it yesterday, and I'm very sorry I said what I did. I apologize to everyone here for what I said.
But I also am shocked that even after so many have poured out their hearts on this very painful subject, I still feel there is a lack of compassion and understanding on Jan's part for the individual who was in so much pain and agony that she chose to kill herself in such a horrific way. You have to have an awful lot internal pain and self-loathing to end your life in a way that is so brutal (and potentially a very painful death if it doesn't come quickly).
I am sure Jan was not alone in her feelings. It probably is just human nature to have an immediate gut reaction of annoyance at the inconvenience the delay caused. But after you have the opportunity to digest what actually happened, to come on here and post as she did, presumably to have others support her indignation at the choice the suicide victim made was, in my opinion, very callous. And to continue to fight for that position after the responses made here, is just beyond my comprehension.
Spelunker provided us with a link to information about this poor young woman. Thank you Spelunker. Let's not let it get lost in all of this:
Authorities Identify Woman Who Ran in Front of Train
| June 16, 2009 |
Jonathan Volzke, The Capistrano Dispatch
A woman authorities say ran in front of a train near Avenida Aeropuerto has been identified as Jill Marie De Freitas, 43, of San Juan Capistrano.< = height=384 alt="Jill Marie De Freitas, in her driver's license photo, supplied by the Orange County Sheriff's Department" =8 width=328 ="http://thecapistranodispatch.com/uploads/s/Dispatch%20Web%20Stories/Jill%20Marie%20De%20Freitas.jpg" align=right =8>
An Amtrak engineer told authorities his train was traveling north about 5:45 p.m. on Monday when he saw someone run out of the bushes near the tracks, onto the track and in front of the train, Orange County Sheriff's spokesman Jim Amormino said.
The engineer, whose train had one engine and five cars carrying 250 passengers, blasted his horn and lost sight of the pedestrian in front of his train.
Authorities later found her belongings near the track. Amormino said she had sent a text message to her relatives before the incident, but he was unsure what the message said.
On her Facebook page, De Freitas says she is a self-employed house-sitter, pet-sitter and assistant. She lists herself as single, and spirtual.
"Not an average or common person in absolutely any way," she wrote about herself. "Despite my imperfections, people seem to to like me a lot & enjoy my company. I have a lot talents. I'm intelligent, funny, intuitive, kind, loving, sensual, interesting conversationalist, fun...blah blah...to know me is to love me..."
Her hobbies are acting and singing, and he page says she attended Indiana University School of Music, Opera. She also posted on her page references to shows she was in. The most recent was apparently the production of "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum" at Irvine Valley College.
Her last post was Saturday. "Heavy Sigh," she wrote. "I really hope I get a call back."
Hillhoney2009-06-19 13:43:18thanks Hillhoney.. that is what Spelunker's link showed...Hill, thanks for doing and saying what you have here.
That took some guts and casts a much more reasoned light on the subject.
Also, thanks for placing the text of the incident up on the board so that all can read.
The one word that struck me out of the text was the word spiritual.
I also wondered why, out of all the words, one would glow more than the others!
Just thinking about myself on that one.
That struck me as odd, also. Unless they release that text message and it contains any valuable info, I guess we will never know why. So very sad. She sounded like she had many talents and had a lot to live for.
[QUOTE=Linncn][QUOTE=NJ Marie][quote]"I honestly don't know how someone could do that to people they say they love.[/quote]
"I don't think you understand the mind set of the suicidal individual. They CAN'T think of anyone else."
I realize this. I don't understand it and I guess I can't because to this point my brain has not worked in a way that tells me that I just need to die. I do feel compassion for people who believe that there is no other way. It's sad to know there are people all around who find no joy at all in life, and see no way of ever experiencing it. But even though I feel for these people, I cannot relate to feeling that way. Everything in me tells me to persevere, that life is to be cherished and fought for.
Suicides can plan their suicide to not traumatize others. I read of a man who did his suicide in his car at the Police Station so he didn't traumatize his loved ones at home. Yes, they can think of someone else. [/QUOTE] I dont think it matters where someone commits suicide it is sad and their loved ones are going to be traumatized no matter what because hellllooooo their loved one committed suicide! And you being INCONVENIENCED by a suicide shows you will never understand what was going through that persons mind that jumped in front of the train. Marie is right they CAN´T think because of the pain they are experiencing.
[QUOTE=Jan Lucinda][QUOTE=Linncn][QUOTE=NJ Marie][quote]"I honestly don't know how someone could do that to people they say they love.[/quote]
"I don't think you understand the mind set of the suicidal individual. They CAN'T think of anyone else."
Jan didn't say that, I did. And it isn't true that you must be able to relate to feelings of suicide in order to have that "primal love" for your children.
I guess you don't understand what I meant when I said that. Perhaps you can relate in a perfect way to everyone's feelings as though they are your own feelings and experiences. I can only relate as far as my own experiences allow and I don't feel I'm being honest if I say that I can relate to all situations as though I have myself lived through them. There are many things I cannot relate to realistically. I don't know what it's like to be abused. I don't know what it's like to be addicted to heroin. I don't know what it's like to be a single mom. I don't know what it's like to have my husband deployed. I don't know what it's like to have such emotional pain I want to die. I feel for each person in these situations. But to say I can fully understand them would be a lie. But this does not mean, nor should you think it means that you are more capable of loving than I am. Linncn2009-06-20 18:10:45Well said Linncn! I tend to agree with you. Even though I saw the pain that suicide caused my sister I had such feelings of anger toward my nephew but at the same time I felt sorry for him too. There is no way that I felt the same pain my sister was in so my feelings on the subject are all over the place. "To each his own" as Momma would say.
Pat My apologies to Jan for misquoting.
I never said I was more capable of loving than you. My main point was this part:
Since I have gone through this with her; it has made me more
empathetic, sympathetic and compassionate towards the people who feel
so hopeless that they want to die rather than hurt any more. It makes
me want to reach out to others more than I have in the past. It has
taught me to not get so wrapped up in my own pain that I don't
acknowledge and try to ease someone else's pain.
I am in no way telling anyone how THEY should feel or react to a situation. I am just stating my own experience.
I think suicide is the ultimately selfish act. In this case, the thoughtless cruelty to the suicide's family was compounded by involving the engineer and inconveniencing everyone else on the train.
If a person wants to kill themselves, they should use a bit of decency and do it in such a way that it won't hurt others, and that their family can at least think it MIGHT have been an accident.
I don't blame the original poster at all for her irritation. I reserve my sympathy for the family left behind and those of us who keep toughing it out every day
To me, if a person is in such a state of depression, that they want to kill themselves, then I feel that they must be in such a bad lonely place that they are no longer capable of making rational choices. All they want is for the pain to end and that's all they have on their mind. People who are severely depressed are so caught up in the depression that they no longer think like you or I do. Their actions might end up hurting others, but I honestly don't believe it was their intention. They are too consumed, with depression, to think it through, like you suggested. If they were capable of doing everything, the way you wanted them to, they would be rational enough to change their minds. Obviously, they are in place where they don't see the big picture and just want a way out. I think it's so very sad when a person is that mentally ill. We don't know what it's like until we walk in another person's shoes.
I think it's sad that a person (mentally ill) took his life, and all people care about is being late!
Whenever I have to wait because of an accident, I usually say a prayer for the people involved and for their families. Oooops,
I moved this post to the Empathy and Compasion thread. I thought that was the thread I had posted to. Gosh, think of the mental anguish one must have to actually take there own life. Oh, boy.
LEV levlarry2009-06-20 19:19:45Marie...I'm sorry. I did misunderstand you and have taken this in a direction it ought not go. I'm glad your daughter has a mom that is all the way with her and loving her through every step of her hard road and is walking it with her. All the best to both of you.Thank you, Linncn.
Best wishes are always appreciated.
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