Iraq | Arthritis Information

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   well if  any of  you  have   members  in the  military  heres  a  wish  for  there  save  return...

 

I  Think  Iraq  has  now  become  a  defacto  war  between  Iran  and  Saudi  Arabia   and  we  are  in the  middle..

20,000 more  troops  will not  fix  this  I  am  afraid  to  say

It is  a  full  flung  civil  war   with our  troops  in the  middle  Not a  good  place  to  be.

I really  wish  that hundreds  of  billions   would  have  gone  to medical  reseach  instead...

If  Israel can  build  a     wasp  that  flys  around  and  kills  people  than  what  could  we  do if  we  had  different  priorities?

I  think we  could  accomplish  much  if  only  our  efforts  were  focused   different..

how  about a  bionic  hand  lord  knows  i may need  one  some  day

or  2

thoughts?

 

Mark,
  You are more than welcome to your opinion. I did not see anything offensive in your post. Keep in mind, however, those of us who have family members or friends who have gone, or have given their lives there. Even though you may not mean anything against the troops by what you said, it is taken by many of them that those who criticize the war loudly in the open are cheapening their sacrifice, as if they or their friends have died for nothing. I am sure that you mean nothing of the sort, just be aware before you post anything on here where many people can see. I have my own problems with what is going on, but the last thing I would do is say that to my friends who were willing to give their life for my freedom.

Thank you, RASara82. I'm one of those with family over in Iraq. Literal family, and other Americans, who are part of my bigger "family."

Whether I, personally, would have chosen this particular path for the US to take or not, I'm not going to kick my family when they're in a tough spot, by criticizing our part in the war.

I'm sure, mark, that you don't intend to be offensive. But I think it's almost impossible to air political views without offending someone, so maybe it's a good topic to stay away from on this forum?

blue heron39067.6825694444

Amen!

God Bless our troops...and America.

And Blue Heron~I tend to agree with you. No matter which side you choose to support politically; there will always be folks that disagree with you. One thing I'm sure we all agree on though is that we are most grateful for the sacrifice our troops are making for our country. I pray that the Lord will protect them all.....and bless their families here at home during this Holiday season. No doubt this has to be the most difficult time of all.

 

Perhaps it is not the TROOPS that are being cirtized, since they only follow the orders that they are given, and rightfully so. But it is Bush and his administration that is to blame.

Why does everyone always assume that a person against the WAR is against the TROOPS. They are separate entities. To be opposed to war, is a good thing. We should try to be more focused on peace. I'm not saying go be a tree hugging hippie, but come on. Who really wants to fight.

I think it's a bad idea to "stay away" from political topics. Staying away from any topic in life only breeds ignorance. Everyone should be entitled to read about politics anywhere they can, and to see all different viewpoints and opinions. Politics is what this country is based on, and to not talk about it would bring the end of this nation.

I'm not for the war. But I've never been for ANY war. Sometimes we do need to step in. And sometimes we step in for too long. It's never the troops fault though. No one said "Hey private, do you think we should go to war?" Their responsibility is to their country. To be loyal and defend us. And when they are told "March" they march. When they are told "fight" they fight. And we are greatful. Many countries don't have that backbone. That, however, does not have anything to do with the "war" itself.

Please try to seperate the two, it will alleviate many headaches.

Blue Heron and Lovie I totally agree with you.

I don't think it is helpful to have political discussions on a health related board.  We all know that stress gives us problems and most people have very strong political opinions.  Why start something where there will be a lot of stress involved.

I love to discuss politics and I don't think anyone is suggesting that folks "stay away" from these topics.  Just that there might be a better forum for the discussion than an RA board.

 

Let's make one

 

 

LoL I'm kidding.

[QUOTE=arriscolwell]Why does everyone always assume that a person against the WAR is against the TROOPS.[/quote]

I think you're making a broad assumption about my assumptions, arriscolwell! I don't think I ever accused mark1 or anyone else of being "against the troops." **checks post** Nope. I didn't. I wouldn't presume to make assumptions about how mark feels about war or troops. I like to think I'm more broad-minded than that. I don't appreciate being "filed away" in the camp of the intolerant either, thanks. 

[QUOTE]To be opposed to war, is a good thing. We should try to be more focused on peace. I'm not saying go be a tree hugging hippie, but come on. Who really wants to fight.[/quote]

You're presenting your opinion as an inarguable fact. Is it a good thing to be opposed to war? Maybe. Maybe not. Is it a good thing to speak up for powerless people in the world who can't speak up for themselves? Is it a good thing, when you're the country with all the resources, to come to the aid of powerless people who've been oppressed by totalitarian governments for decades? Because some people might not see the war in quite the same black and white terms as you see it. Out of respect for those who think differently, you might state your opinions in less dogmatic terms.

[quote]I think it's a bad idea to "stay away" from political topics. Staying away from any topic in life only breeds ignorance. Everyone should be entitled to read about politics anywhere they can, and to see all different viewpoints and opinions. Politics is what this country is based on, and to not talk about it would bring the end of this nation.[/quote]

Oh, I'm sorry: did I imply that we should all stick our heads in the sand just to avoid the unpleasant subject of war? Because what I thought I was saying--and what others were saying--was maybe this forum isn't the time and place to talk about it. There's such a thing as discretion, and thumping a political podium in a medical support forum isn't necessarily it.

I don't think mark1 intended to spark a heated disagreement on the nature of American politics, but I feel that this is what it's turning into. I'm simply saying that I come to this RA board for support and advice about health. I don't want to hear political rants about why people think we have a crummy president. I hear enough of that on the CBS evening news.

Do people--as you put it--"have a right" to read about politics here? Of course: I know the First Amendment as well as you do. I'm not talking about Rights. I'm talking about good manners.

In my post I did not accuse Mark of being against the troops. I'm sure that he is very supportive of them. My point was that saying things like that may offend those who have lost loved ones, or whose loved ones are currently overseas. I don't suggest that we all have to  keep our mouths shut, I just suggest that discretion is used when talking about such a sensitive topic. Also, the vast majority of our troops who are fighting or have fought, are in support of their cause....not simply following orders because they have to. So, speaking out against the war is speaking out against what they stand for. Everyone is more than welcome to voice their opinion, just keep in mind how it would feel to be on the other side. Mark,  I have gone down this path.  I love talking politics but have found it does not keep peace on the board.  I cannot resist agreeing with you AND supporting the troops, who I know a few friends and friends children over there as well, but politics get very heated and we are all emotionally drained from RA.  HUGZ  RoxJesus, chill out kids. If you're so high and mighty about your opinions, then step off of mine. It's really pathetic - yes I said it's pathetic - that you got so uppity over what I said. I never named either one of you specifically, so take your Valium and chill out. I stated my opinion on the matter, based on all of the things that I have heard and read and people I have spoken to. Not *just* on this forum. I wasn't trying to rile anyone up. If I want to do that, you'll know. Trust me. When crispy there was a better forum for this topic, I agreed. Even offered to start one! So relax. If you don't want it to be an ugly topic, or you think this isn't the place, then drop it. Kay? Kay. Laters. Are we not fortunate that we can freely speak our opinions?I hate to say it, but it was almost refreshing to see a topic responded to with such passion that had nothing to do with our health. I would say that we are all alive and kicking. Katie, I'm with you and Mark on this issue. There should be more war protests not less. If we truly support our troops we should speak up for them to come home.

Yes, Deanna, I feel the same.

Not only is this little brawl a sign of life outside RA, (I don't like brawls, but it is still a sign of life), it has nothing to do with healthfood cures.

If we must hiss and spit, and I suppose sometimes we must, at least this is a new one.

My contribution: I think it's a shame, but still a truth, that we can't discuss politics in this country any more. It's not just this board. It's at just about any street corner or dinner table. It is so emotional, personal, intense, extreme for almost everyone that the opportunity for intelligent discourse and debate is about gone. I really miss that.

Anyone who speaks an opinion that's unpopular with the person who hears it risks not just a vigorous debate but a venomous response or even an emotional mauling. 

Somehow we feel so threatened by differing views that we've lost the ability even to hear a different opinion.

And it's not just the hearing we're getting bad at. We give our opions with more barbs or pre-emptive diffensiveness than ever, thus spurring an even more upset response from the other side.

It's just all too interpersonally scary to allow for exchange. It's this condition, even more than than the actual state of our political situation, which is worrisome enough, that makes me worry about us.

Ah, well.

Oh, and nothing I just said was a reference, not even a veiled one, to anyone else on this board or anything that has been said on this thread. I'm hissing and spitting at The World, not at anyone here.

 

  

    I  did not post the topic  to  be  a  political  debate  and  so   while  you may  not  think it  belongs  here  maybe  and  maybe  not...  but   350  plus  billion is  a  whole   lot  of money    yup  a  whole  lot  of   money   and  If   Isreal  can invent a  flying  nanotech killing  machine  the  size  of  a  wasp  then  someone   could  make a  better  knee  replacment  or    find  a  better  medicine  then prednisone..  sorry  for those  of  you that love  prednisone  but  I  think  good ole prednisone  sucks  yup  ...  needed  I   suppose  but  it's  a  evil  drug. Yes politics  sucks  but  medicine  is  mired  in politics   Don't think  so     then  why  does  it  take  a  drug  13  years plus  to  get  approved  by the  FDA  a process  so  difficult  that  many  companies   don't   even bother  to bring  something  to market  ubless  they   think  they  will make  a  killing  on it..  thats  medicine  in  america   You will probably be  mad  at me  for  saying  it  but  thats  what  it  is....

http://www.expresshealthcaremgmt.com/200602/technology01.sht ml

I just think  it is  sad  that here in  THe good ole  USA  we  can't  even get this  surgery if  we  needed  it  and  some  day I will probably  need  it  and  so yes  I'm selfish  I  want the  best technology  in the  world  If  I  have  to lose  body parts  I  sure  as  hell wish  and  hope I  can live   a  somewhat  normal life  afterwards....   all  I'm doing is  sharing  thoughts  and feelings   your  thoughts  probably  vary  but how  is  this  related  to iraq  I  suppose  you will  ask  and  to that  I  will just  say  That I  would  fathom  that  70 billion  dollars  might  Go  a  long  way  to   advancing  some  medical   advancements  that could  benefit   many  people  but  alas, I  don't  get  to  decide  how  we  spend   cash in  America   and  really like  most  americans  I  never  thought  about  these  things  funny how   RA  can  make  you think  to much  maybe  I just  think  to much.   I just  think its  kind  of  ironic  that  someone  has  the   genius  to invent a  flying  nanotech  wasp   but    in many  ways  in the  medical  field    well  medicine  is  still in the  dark  ages  in  many  ways. I  quess I just  wish that  same  genius  that can make  flying   wasps  would  invest  some of that  knowledge  into  making life  better  for  someone  who I  don't know  lost a  leg  maybe?  Think  about  that  they  can make  a  little  wasp  that  can   fly  ok  so it's  3  years  away  but  still  if you  can make  a  tiny  wasp   to  fly  around  and  kill people  maybe  some  of  that  same  brillance  could  have  made  a  bionic  hand  and  who knows  maybe  I just  think  to much.I   quess  I  just  wish there was  more   time  but  really  when you  have  RA   time  and  your  perception of  time   changes..  it use  to not  bother  me  that it takes  13  years  to geta  new  medicine  to  market   now   13  years  is  a  eternity.....  funny  how   RA  changes   your  perceptions   did I   ever  tell you  I  hate  RA?  it  scares  me   and  I wonder  often how much can my  body  take  I  don't  know  I hope  for  the  best  or  try  to.....   at  times  it gets  hard  very  hard....  it's  scary  and  I  have  to  just  figure  out  how  to try  and  work  and  survive  RA   whats   kind  of  sad  is  that   you  never  think  about  these  things  till  one day  there  it is  facing  you  and    so maybe  my  thinking   is  wrong  but  RA   can    change  the  way  you  think..  If  you get  mad  at  me  for  thinking  these  things  well  that's ok  too...

the message  board  is  to  share  thoughts    so  we  should not  have  to  say  well I'm  scared  to  write  what I  feel  down  because  I have  to be  thankful  I  can write   today..  sadly  that may not  always  be  the  case . I hope  if  I ever  need  to get a  new  knee  I  can get one  like  that one  in India     that kind  of  stuff  encourages  me...  I  quess  my point  is  this  If  they can  make  a    flying  wasp    think  about  that  a  flying  wasp  then  they  can  do  far  more  in medicine  then  they have   right  now. I  quess  we should  be  thankful its   2006  but  I'll  be  honest  latly  i  often wish  it  was   2036   but  alas   this  the  hand  I  was  delt I have  to  get  through  it  somehow  but  it's  hard...   hope  mark  hope... I  gotta hang on  to hope.   Hey  at least  RA  has  not  stolen my  ability  to think  yet..........   and  yea  I  am a  thinker  probably  my     downfall.  I  hate  RA.. yup    somehow  I  have  to  fight  it  tho  how  I'm not   sure  yet  I  can't let this illness  destroy  me  but it is  trying  it's best  to.

 

mark

RKGal I agree. It hurts me deeply that when I want to talk about politics, it seems to always end in anger. :( Politics is turning into religion. Can't talk about it, can't criticize it, can't change it. Eventually what was once such a great system, will become just what most religion has become. Extremely one sided and hidden behind a curtain. And the majority of people will look away when anyone brings it up. In both scenarios it's sad. Our country was founded on BOTH religion and politics, and yet we can't seem to do anything with either one of them without starting a huge debate or creating problems. I have a passion for both so sometimes I get a little......heated. LoL But I'm certainly not trying to make anyone mad, or tell anyone their wrong. I just want people to be fired up about it and talk about it and learn. This was a nice change in topic, as Deanna said. And we are all very much alive. LoL Hey maybe the last election, the country is becoming more like minded

Peace

 

I want an exo-skeleton to help out all the things that don't work right any more. And, can you make it cool looking like straight from the X-men. And, make me sexy looking again because I really miss that.

I just wish they would find a cure. I am so tired of being diagnosed with more things for which there is no cure. A cure, please, a cure.

Yes, our priorities seem all out of whack. Teachers get paid nothing while corporate big shots get millions. War is funded but it usually takes donations of really dedicated people to get medical research going.

And, I don't understand why I cannot speak my mind without insulting a friend. I remember a time when I could. I think that this will change though. All these underlying emotions will come bursting out. As Americans we just weren't designed to stuff it all inside.

 

I think that this topic is a great diversion from the usual "this hurts and that hurts".  And let's all take a lesson from Roxy.  Who has had any more criticism than she has and she just took it in stride, weeded out the good from the bad and went on with her life.  And, she never scolded anyone for their opinion.  Now that's what I call class!!  Way to go Roxy.
As far as the war goes, I think we know more about it than we need to. There were just as many if not more soldiers killed in Vietnam. What if other wars had been filmed and boradcasted for the world to see.  We would have an uproar like we have now.  My brother was in WW11 under General Patton and my brother was killed because they ran out of ammunition. Now the media would have loved that!  Not sure who was President then, but his name would have been S-H-T! 
Calm down and get a grip for goodness sake.  Why does everyone think that they have to be right?  Listen up, you may learn something!

N & T - I expose myself to criticism as I am willing to reveal my "personal life" to an open board because the good thoughtful advice that I HAVE listened to, far outweighs the criticism.  I am glad I have a forum that I am not afraid to be who I am, good or bad, and get feedback on my judgement and on my fears and on how to problem solve situtations I am not confident in.  This board has given me way more support and love than any criticism and I will always be grateful.  That is exactly what I mean Roxy, you listen to the advice and take what you want from it and move on without getting mad at anyone!  And you do expose yourself and most of us do not do that.  I applaud you for the ability to do so.  We learn from you too Roxy and that deserves another Thanks! 
I guess the bottom line is, "Thanks for being you"! 
Katie,
My reply was not a cut at you, nor did I think that your
response was directed at me. Personally, I do not agree with
the way the war is being handled, so I agree with you.......
somewhat. I do not think that my opinion is worth more than
anyone else's, and I have many friend who feel very differently
on both sides than I do, and I value their opinions as well. I
don't think that THIS particular forum should be an outlet for
politics, because most people have strong feelings either way,
and most people come here to get relief, not stress. This is all I
will say on the matter. CAN'T WE AGREE TO DISAGREE?

Either you take it personally....and feel the need to attach back; or you take the opinion for what it's worth and move on.

Either way these message boards are never boring.

Wow, I spend a day away from the computer, and have 3 pages to catch up on this thread!

[QUOTE=RASara82]
CAN'T WE AGREE TO DISAGREE?

RASara82, I would like nothing more than to be able to agree to disagree with people who believe differently than I do. But why does it seem that when politics come up, people forget how to be polite? We can talk about money, we can talk about sex, I think we can even talk about religion and be careful not to step on other peoples' toes...but when politics comes up it seems to be an excuse for manners to fly out the window. 

 

Mark1  I'm sorry you are hurting so much. I worry a lot about the same things that you do and life just isn't the way it ought to be. I always remind myself --welcome to the human race-- So much could be better if people only cared about one another. If only some people weren't so interested in making a lot of money- sometimes at the expense of other people - or being on power trips - if only our resources could be directed at ways to end suffering it would be a much better world. It's so hard to have to keep on working in the pain and unpredictability that we have with this disease. I won't babble on any more but I also think that if research was done a lot differently and money was spent differently we could relieve so much suffering just like so many of those idealistic young people in Iraq are trying to do.

very  true  Tiana

  if only  drug  companies  were not only interested  in  making  drugs  they know  they can make a  killing  on..  sad  but  true.

    drug  company  A-- Hey  this   drug  can   stop inflamation

 Owner--  "hmmmmmm   can I  make  big money  if   we  make  it?"

drug  company nope  only  2  million  people  would  benefit

owner-- "only  2  million   hell drop  that  research  immediatly  I  only  want  big  money  drugs  in the  pipeline"

yup   thats   the  sad  truth  of  drug  research  in  america

http://www.forbes.com/2001/12/17/1217amgen.html

mark139068.9167013889

I get suspicious because the biologics are a  big profit industry.  What is there to motivate pharamceutical companies to come up with better options when they are making billions off our disease and we are all guinea pigs as far as the long term effects of these drugs.  That is my attraction to AP therapy.  Its motives are not greed

PS  If you ever want to talk politics, I will send you my email.  I find politics invigorating.  Probably not good as what is going on can make you angry but I would much rather see people angry then apathetic. 

roxy39068.9870138889

Hissing and spitting included, this thread has been one of the most real and refreshing discussions related to politics I've heard in a long time. I'm not suggesting we continue it, but I do want to acknowledge that this is a pretty cool group of people.

Katie, I want to mention that I really enjoyed your post that included the analogy of politics and religion. I was nodding away at your whole post, sharing your feelings and enjoying the way you expressed yourself.

And, Katie again, this is a different thread and a different board, but I just read your post in the excellent thread about RA and depression at the RA Sushi board.

You astounded me with that post. It was so beautiful, eloquent, true, wrenching, generous, gripping. I've been enjoying the spirit and intelligence in your posts for some time, as I do so many of these wise, funny, spirited characters around here. But where have you been hiding that you can WRITE like that?

Anyone who hasn't checked out that thread on the RA Sushi board is missing something.

Wanna know something sad? I have to be exhausted or pissed or truely depressed to write anything like that. Heh. Otherwise I'm just another schmuck! Katie, the one thing in life you will never be is just another schmuck. You are just going to just have to accept the fact that you are talented and dynamic. and maybe a little crazy....just kidding Katie! Well said Karen. :) Though, I've had long talks with my dad and many other retired military, and current military folk, and they are in the general consensus that we will never have another draft, save for Armageddon. So I honestly wouldn't worry about it too much. Hehe. I was so VERY excited that the dems won the house this past election. We were SWIMMING in repubs. for the past 2 years, and it was just over-kill. I think it should always be a nice even balance, so that we get everyones viewpoint in there. But I don't make the rules. I can't say that I'm really affiliated with any particular party, as I like to see plenty of each around. Too much of one or the other seems to be a bad thing. Bush ALONE is far too much repub. for me! Hah

Deanna - But I LIKE being a schmuck....

Thats  when you  best  say Ohh MY...  because   while  most  folks  will think  hey look  We  solved  it....  that's  when   there  will be  a   conflict  that will make  Iraq   and  afganny  seem  very  mild.

 It will be  the  calm before  the  storm if  you  will  but the  storm is  coming  I know  we've  heard  it  all before  but  while  war  drums  beat  and  terrorists  rage  I know  hey  everythings  normal over  there   it's  when it  get's  deathly  quite  and  everyone  talks  Peace  that  the  real  trouble  is  right  arond  the  corner. I keep my  eyes  on    when they  start  to  force  Isreal into peace  plans  or  giving  up land  or  some  land  for  peace deal  when I see  that  begin  to happen  Then I will be  concerned  because  I know  instead  of  hey   how  amazing  we  fixed  IT... IT  is  about  to  explode  far far worse  than  iraq  is now.when there is a  false  sense  of  security in Isreal  and  they think  they  finally  have  the  peace  plan   thats  when    trouble  is  coming.    So yea  the  things  that are  happening  are  bad    and I pray  everyday for the soldiers  but  while those  drums  beat  I know hey  business  as  usual for  the  middle  east  It's  when that  hey  we  finally have  a  lasting  peace  agreement thing   comes  along  and  everyone  let's  there  quard  down  then  .. that means  troubles  coming..... because  there  will be  a  peace  plan  that will  work  someday...

 when  will it  happen  who knows  noone  does  and   there  may be  war in the middle  east  for  the  rest of our  lives    but  thats  normal..... It's  when that   hey  we've  finally  got  a  lasting  peace  solution  that comes  out  that I  would  be  concerned...

We will probably  never  see this  peace plan in our  lifetime  or  it  could  happen  very  soon....  either  way  when    it happens  is  when I would  get more  concerned  the terrorist  can  rage  and threatin  and       beat there  drums  of  war...  or  jihad   heck   they have  beat that drum  for  a  long  long time..   when Iran says  stuff like  we will wipe  you off the  face  of the  earth  I know  ok  everythings  as  always  in the  middle  east...  When Iran says  hey  Israel  lets  be   friends lets  end  our  long  conflict  and  finally   stop  this  constant  conflict  hey hezzbollah  lay  down all  your  arms  let's  be  friends    finally  and  forever   we  have a  peace   watch out........when  syria  says  lets  be  friends  let's  be  good  neighbors  let's  have  the  final    solution  to  end  our  conflict... oh boy  look  out.........because  I  just  know  We    are  not going  to  fix  this  conflict  it  will be  fixed  someday  thats a  givin.. but it's not going  to be  anything  that the  USA  or   the  european union or  the  UN  does  that will finally  solve  the  middle  east  and  really  this  war  in iraq  is  all  connected  to  the  conflict  over  Palestine  not  in a    direct  way  but  it's  connected..    The Iranian leader  right  now   thinks  he  must  cause  chaos  in the  world  to  bring on  the  advent  of  a  religious  event  for  their  faith..  and  so  he  will  rage  and     beat his  drums  as  will hezzbollah  and   all the  others  because  right  now  they  are  convinced  they  can bring  this  supposed  chaos  to pass... will  they...  time  will  tell

It's  interesting that  Iran is   so    into beating  their  war  drums  latly  tho  if  you  go back in history  Iran is  persia...  iT is all  very  interesting  the  middle  east   and  how  it  will all play out  some  day.  Unfortunatly  for  now  it's  war  on  and  that is  normal  for  the  middle  east. It is  when they  say  hey  lets  all be  friends... that  trouble  is  coming.....

raise your hand if you have been to iraq....

 

-Jon

Thanks Jon for what you have done for us. I told Katie (no you are not a schmuck, yes, you are crazy and that is why I luvs yas so) I was going to stay out of this one since I have very strong feelings about it and didn't want to offend anyone.  With that said, I hope I don't offend anyone and please remember this is just my opinion. 

Please support our troops.  Please.  While the actions and reasons we may not agree with about why we are over there, it is our sons, daughters, grandchildren, husbands, wives, nieces, nephews, etc. over there doing the actual work.  May whatever higher power they believe in watch over them and keep them safe.  There was a church group going to funerals of Fallen Soldiers in our WI area protesting the funerals of these soldiers.  How horrific is that. 

Saddam needed to be taken out of power.  There is so much oil over there that we need and the threat of us not having it moved the big money and power in this country to do something about it.  We are an oil greedy oil consuming nation.  While we have plenty of our own supply, it is unfortunately located where precious wildlife and wetlands are.  There has to be a compromise somewhere between conservation groups and oil companies on how to get to this oil so we can be self sufficient and not depend on countries that treat their citizens very poorly because they hold power and that power has gone to their heads and really whacked them out. 

It would be nice if Bush did match what we are spending on war with medical research.  And schools...and government programs for those without insurance, sufficient insurance, and insufficient health care.  Reality is that big money controls the nation and they can afford top notch insurance and docs and don't really care whether we can or not.  As long as they are treated and treated well.  Mark had mentioned something about stem cell research.  I am all in favor of that.  And I am borderline conservative Christian.  But I look at the benefits of the research.  It is a give and take situation. 

I don't think there is going to be a draft.  Hotspots are very quietly and covertly taken care of by Special Forces lately. 

I do feel Iraq is just another Viet Nam and we need to get out.  But we can't.  Civil unrest, training the new police force, advising the new government, trying to please many different religious beliefs is just going to take time.  And unfortunately lives.  There was civil unrest there to begin with, but our prescence has just excerbated it and brought it into the limelight. 

I really would love to see Peace on Earth.  I probably won't.  Too many whack jobs whose mothers didn't tell them "NO" enough when they were children running countries.  And thinking they can do what they want to whomever they want and there be no consequences for their actions.

Karen...I can understand completely your fear about your boys.  I have a daughter that is h*ll bent on going into the military the minute she graduates high school.  I don't have to worry about the draft.  She is going whether we like it or not.  She loves her country and feels it is her duty to protect it and continue the tradition from hubby's side of the family of joining the military.  She wants to be a Navy pilot and fly off of ships.  YAY4ME and about 10 zillion new grey hairs when she goes in lol. 

WOW.Very Interesting folks....I'll just add a few things. Remember where you get all your " IRAQ " information. Probably the 24 hr a day CNN's or CNBC of Fox. What ya really need to do is speak to someone who is there. I did. His first staement was I cannot beleive the crap on TV here in the states. All they show is a car bomb. Not the hospitals, schools, dams etc. Never show the Iraq people who are SO gratefull that SAddam is gone. The soldiers want to finish the job that was started. That was his quote. We can debate the issue of wether we should have gone there but its seems everybody has forgotton how they felt on 9/12. NOw before ya get your undies in a bunch I'm not saying Hussein was responsible for 9/11. I beleive relegion over there is much stronger then boundries. Radical Islam has hated us long before 9/11. ex. First World Trade center bombing, USS Cole Beiruit,  and the list goes on.  Let the MILITARY handle Iraq and get out after that, when the job is done or if there is no way it can be accomplished. It also seems everyone has forgotton the 17 UN resulutions Saddam failed to obey. His use of WMD against the Kurds. They are using that video in his trial. If you can take a look and see what kind of man he was. Torture was a common occurence. I could go on but I pray the war ends quickly and hopefully an independant government that is working to it's full potential. The odds are against that but we can hope.....

I believe we can't change things on our own.  They need to work together to build their country and make it right and right now they are at war with each other which makes it hard.

But please know, we aren't there just to fight or keep peace, we are there helping rebuild what we broke and we are training their new soldiers to take over when we leave.  Until it is done we cant think of leaving or it would be a country that would easily be taken over again probably by someone far worse than the last leader.

I personally have met families who have relatives there or those who have reinlisted and they are actually proud to be there.  I just hope everyone can support what they think is right.

i agree with you bubbagump.  I think we do need to get out of there but we have to help the Iraqi army restrenghten and help rebuild what we have destroyed.  I know many people that have been over in Iraq.  A friend of mine that ive known my whole life was over there twice, a highschool friend was over there twice and my pastors son was over there for almost a year and before he was about to come home he was almost killed.  I thank God everyday for those that are over seas risking their lives to help other people. Granted i also believe that we need help over here too dont get me wrong but for those that are out there on the front lines risking their lives day in day out, we all have to be thankfull for them.  If you look back to every war that we have been involved in you have to be thankful for those that voluntered to be in the military and those that were drafted because without them (and without help of our allies) we would be a heck of a lot worse off then we are now. If we would have never been envolved in WWII who knows what could have happened and if Hitlers regiem would still have been in power and thus the power of him would have been handed down.  Do i belive that we should have been in this war in Iraq? Yes and No.  Yes because Saddam Hussian's power needed to be taken away from him and this was probably going to be the only way that was going to happen.  No only because we have alot of problems in our own country.  But seeing as how we are in this war wether the country likes it or not we cant just say to the Iraqi people "ok we blew up your buildings killed all these peope, your military and police have no idea how to stop the violence that is happening, we're gonna leave now"  how would that look to other countries?  That the USA is willing to go in and stop horrible people from being in power but they arent willing to help the government build up again?  Just look at the reaction that France recieved when they wanted to back out and not support the war, I think eveyone that wasnt french looked down on them. Granted im not a big supporter of the French to begin with but everyone would be looking at us in the same way.  It is too bad that we blew up so much of their infrastructure and Halliburton is making billions supposedly re-building.  Cheney being a CEO of Halliburton and major stockholder - Doesn't anyone see a conflict of interest ????????????????Oh roxy, that's just the tip of the "conflict-of-interest-iceberg" :| I enjoy this radio station. Give it a chance...

http://www.airamerica.com/
[QUOTE=mark1]

   well if  any of  you  have   members  in the  military 
heres  a  wish  for  there  save  return...


 


I  Think  Iraq  has  now  become  a  defacto  war  between  Iran  and 
Saudi  Arabia   and  we  are  in the  middle..


20,000 more  troops  will not  fix  this  I  am  afraid  to  say


It is  a  full  flung  civil  war   with our  troops  in the  middle  Not a 
good  place  to  be.


I really  wish  that hundreds  of  billions   would  have  gone  to
medical  reseach  instead...


If  Israel can  build  a     wasp  that  flys  around  and  kills  people 
than  what  could  we  do if  we  had  different  priorities?


I  think we  could  accomplish  much  if  only  our  efforts  were 
focused   different..


how  about a  bionic  hand  lord  knows  i may need  one  some  day[/
P]

or  2


thoughts?


 

[/QUOTE]

Mark, this is a great topic for conversation. My family buried bits and
pieces of what was left of my cousin a year ago after being killed in
Baghdad. His two little boys are going to grow up without their daddy.
My son in law just came back from Iraq a changed man. He is suffering
from PTSD and is on medication. So while I support our troops, I clearly
do not support this war which is one of the biggest mistakes our country
has ever made. Almost 3000 American troops have died. I am not sure
that I understand anyone that feels that WAR is ok. War has never solved
any problems. Much can be accomplished in our world by negotiations
and by our planet coming together and aiming towards world peace. I
can think of a lot of things our money could have paid for. I see
problems like Darfur, the problems with the African orphans and the
endless problems that Americans are facing right now. I also see what
this war has done to the people of Iraq. 20 percent of their children are
malnourished and extremely stressed. Their people are stressed and
their country is demolished. Because of us.    Lets also not forget the
30,000 Americans that have been wounded. As an American who was
opposed to this war but stood behind my president during the early days
of the war and then watched as he made one bad decision after another
with no regard for the advice he was given by the experts in the field and
then the 911 commission report and now the Iraq study group report and
now as of today, he still wants to put more troops in. Come on. There is
something wrong with this. I do not want to hear one more comment
about if you don't support the war, you don't support the troops. That is
ridiculous. Yes, I'm angry and will be for a long while over the loss of my
cousin and the spirit the war robbed from my son in law. We are in a
huge mess and there is no easy way out. By not talking about this on any
forum on the internet, we are robbed of our freedom of speech. i hold
nothing against anyone who feels that this war is ok and that we should
just go on killing more and more of our soldiers. There is nothing I can
do to get my cousin back but I can certainly voice my opinion about this
quagmire that we are in.
I love Air America A great deal of what is going on now would have been prevented had the job been finished in the first Gulf War. My father in law is an ex Green Beret colonel, and while he doesn't talk about much, that is the one thing he had always said. He said we were so close to taking care of Saddam and a great deal of the terrorist groups could have been wiped out. Since Congress decided we needed to leave, the job didn't get done. Now, years later, the terrorist groups have multiplied tenfold. I am not saying we wouldn't have any terrorists to deal with, but it might have been a much more manageable problem. This is why I am hesitant to say it is time to leave Iraq. Most likely the problem is so big it can't be eliminated, but leaving the Middle East too early the last time is why we are there now. Chances are, my husband will be going soon, which would tear me up, but I don't want this problem to be passed on to our children. Oh Sara - I pray your husband does not have to go.  As long as we need oil and exploit the middle east - which we do - the more we will be hated.  It just so happens that religious fanatics with not much to live for can use extreme measures.  That is what we are dealing with.  You realize we financed Osama Bin Ladin and trained him in the Afghanistan war with USSR.  We need to take some responsibility.  There is no way out. We cannot just leave. We owe it to our troops and
the people of Iraq to somehow make this a win win. More troops will
increase the violence and make the country even more unstable. Coming
home...well...who knows. Is it fair to make this big of a mess and not
attempt to clean it up? Can it be cleaned up? I know we have done some
good over there. Saddam is gone. Women voted. We have enabled them
to have more access to phone services and utilities. The children are still
hungry and stressed. There is much work to be done. I don't want the
reputation as the country who went in, made a huge mess, then left.
Somehow, we must restore our world reputation. I'm tired of listening to
this president say the same thing over and over. Today he told us all to
go shopping. Now he wants to move into Iran. We do not have the
resources left to go into Iran, even if it is to sit in the Gulf. Our soldiers
are going back to Iraq on their 3rd and 4th missions. Is this fair to them
and their families? A draft. Now here is an idea. I think we should do
this. This way, all of our kids go. Maybe that would get people in the
streets, protesting this situation. I'm afraid a draft is what it will take to
get people yelling in the streets. This war is just not personal enough for
most of America yet.I hope Katie and Liz are correct that there will never be another draft, but since my President is talking about increasing the number of troops in Iraq, I am more worried than ever!  A draft would not mean "all our kids go".  And  if my sons had to go, then I would want President Bush's daughters to go, and the kids of all the members of Congress, and let's not forget the sons and daughters of the highly paid CEO's of big business.  Then it would be personal, Lorster!  But we all know that would never happen.

I do agree, we can't just pull out.  That would be disasterous.  We have to start the process and planning for it though.  I don't think we have a plan at this point!  It is time to work with Iraq's government, and it's neighbors in finding a solution.  That means working diplomatically with Syria and Iran.  That doesn't seem possible now because of the approach we have been taking, but it could be.  The other countries of the region need to be on board, because a stable Iraq is in their best interests also.
Roxy, isn't it sad that we funded all of this? Yes, Osama bin Laden has always been a terrorist, but we made it much worse by supplying money and weapons. DUH! Unfortunately now we have a huge mess to  clean up. Don't you wish all of the people who helped create ths problem would have to go over there instead of our brave soldiers? The president (I won't call him my president as each time he was elected, I went into grieving) He does not have a clue how to clean up this mess.  He thought we would go in there, not understanding their culture, their different religions, nothing and thought if we got Saddam out (for his father) everything would be peachy keen.  What a mess.  I wish I could come up with answers but I am clueless.  I just want our kids to quit being maimed and killed over there.  In fact, I want the Iraqi people and children to quit being killed and live unbearable lives.  It IS a mess.  I think about it and it boggles my mind.  I think we need to quit being so arrogant and ask for help from other countries.  I think we should not be running the whole show and do what we can to help in a united plan to help the Iraqis get back on their feet.  MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.  Yes, we bombed their entire infrastructure, employed people became unemployed, no clean water, no electricity and the poor Iraqis fear that if they step outside their doors they will either be killed my one of our soldiers mistaking them for terrorists or killed by terrorists to make sure the world knows what a mess it is over there and it is only getting worse.  It is definitely a fine breeding ground for terrorists and Bush is in total denial.  He is always talking about his christianity but I do not feel one bit of compassion from him for all the lives lost or ruined.

I agree that the Bush administration did not take into consideration the social/religious environment of the countries involved. I also think that he did not understand the range that the Muslim religion reaches across our globe. He has a tendency to not listen to other opinions that disagree with his own. This is very dangerous in a leader of a country.

But the mess is there. Unfortunately, if Bush stays true to form, it isn't going to improve because that is outside his character. Over and over again, he has taken on the "big bully, I'm going to get my way by superior forces" attitude.

And, good people die. It will take either collective voice of the American people or another leader in office to change that. Yes, we are stuck with the misconception that if we are against the war, we are not supporting the troops. In my heart, they are two different things. This is volunteer forces that are over there. They were not drafted. They loved their country and their families to go because the leader in charge said, "Go." They are valiant.

But how easy is it for the men in the White House who have their own vested interests in oil and reconstruction to say, "Go." They have gained a lot and have not lost their children. Although, in my opinion, they are all our children over there.

The plans were ill-laid. Sounder voices were ignored. Now, here's this mess and yes, it does remind me of Vietnam. We can't just walk out of this country because we demolished it. And, we cannot keep just sending over troops. Somehow the fire has to be diminshed without the continuous blood of our children. That takes strategy and diplomacy. It takes a willingness to work with other countries and across different cultures.

I don't see that in our current leadership. I wish I did.

I thought the station was AIrAmerica.commie. I listen to it for a brief time. Way too left. Like listening to Rush L Way to right

    one  thing    MR  bush  is  not  aware  of  is  the  huge  range  of  propoganda  on  TV  in  Jordan  and  Egypt   that  is   anti  american/ anti  Israel    anti   zionist.  Ir's not  just those   countries  its   all  accross  the  middle  east.  In Jordan they show  a  tv  show  where  americans  drink palestinian blood  that  Israel'is  kill kids  to make  matzo   and  it  goes  on and  on  and  on. Bushy  sure  for  a   christian that he  claims  himself  to  be  had  no  clue   what  the   region  at  all. All he   thinks   foolishly is  if  ya  make  someone   "free"  they will throw  roses  at your  feet  and  really  folks  that is  what  mr  cheeney  was  expecting... roses..  Imagine  the horror on his   face  when our   soldiers  were  greeted  with  RPG's. not  flower

they had  no  idea  of  the  propoganda  and  hatred  towards  us  there  is   NO  IDEA.   they hate  US  in the  middle  east.   why ?  name  a  reason.

Mark1...Not sure how you know what the President knows or does not know, but my guess is he is aware of the TV propaganda over there. AS I recall out initial deployment was met pretty well. Remember when they tore down the Saddam statue? It has developed into this quagmire over time. Reliogion and economics are the usual things that start wars. here is no different Ok guys, I have an idea that will solve this shortage of troops.  Let's empty all of the jails and prisons and send the prisoners to Iraq.  These guys like to kill and abuse so they will feel right at home.  And what a burden will be lifted for the taxpayers!  OMG, can you just imagine?  And I bet that other thiefs and killers will take a second look at this picture and perhaps change their mind.  Am I dreaming?  Some of these men on death row have been there for umteen years and probably would like the chance to kill again.  Let's ship em out!!  Let's not even vote on it, let's do it!   The sad fact is that our president didn't have a plan. The statue toppled
in the first 10 days of the war and our great, fearless leader had no idea
what the people of the middle east were capable of. I'm thrilled that
Saddam and his two sons are gone. I don't think anyone would disagree
with that. But, the people of Iraq should have been the ones that took
them out. Not us. This was not our job. I know many of the people of
Iraq are grateful but many are not. We have turned their country upside
down and now there is civil war. Even if our government is having a
difficult time admitting to it, that is what it is. And our children are there
in the crossfire. 72 this month. Bush and his cronies need to admit that
this is a huge failure and now we need to figure out how to exit without
creating more problems for all involved. We need to decrease our
reliance on mid east oil and start working on alternate energy solutions.
As long as Bush and his buddies have their hands in the pockets of big
oil, this will continue and many Americans will suffer. Please go check
out web sites like smartvote.org and similar sites and find out how your
congressmen voted on issues like welfare, support of our veterans,
education, healthcare and many other areas. You will be unpleasantly
surprised. I know I was. I based my vote this year on much of what I
discovered. Please research and find out where your taxes are being
spent. You will be surprised. Maybe this war will take on a different
meaning.Now & Then, I can appreciate where you're coming from with your idea for beefing up our armed forces, but:

The men in a military unit rely on each  other to "have their back".  I don't think you could ever develop that kind of trust and comradery in a group such as you recommend.  It would be very difficult to instill discipline in a group of prisoners, without facing the constant danger of defection, mutiny, illegal behavior.  In many ways, the soldiers could be as dangerous as the enemy. And if we proceed with your plan, what happens when it's time to bring these "prisoner soldiers" home?

I have an old friend who assumed I supported the war.  She has sent me emails for years about the war...supporting the war etc.  Recently she sent me a very graphic email about what the soliders in Iraq are going through.  Because my 20 year old nephew was recently deployed to Baghdad, I decided to respond.  I am sharing my response with you so you understand my feelings about the war in Iraq.

I say this with the deepest love and respect for your feelings and beliefs.  However, I am responding to this email because I need you to respect mine.

I would appreciate it if you did not send me this type of email.  They are deeply disturbing to me.

My beautiful, wonderul 20 year old nephew has been in Iraq for the past 2.5 months.  He is not just in Iraq but in the heart of Baghdad and his in Army Special Operations which is dangerous business.  Last week 3 young men in his unit were killed.

The photos you sent were deeply disturbing...and not just for the reasons you think.  First, I do not need to visually see what my nephew is experiencing...my imagination can take care of that, thank you very much.

They are also deeply disturbing because they are a painful reminder of the foolhardiness of our current President and the people he has surrounding him.  You see...I was very opposed to this war even before my nephew ever enlisted.  I am now vehmently opposed and much more vocal about it.

I am by no means an expert on the Middle East.  However, I have been fascinated and studied the region since junior high school.  I have read, listened and taken courses on the subject.  What I have learned is that no outsi