Orencia-Brisen | Arthritis Information

You asked about Orencia on another post. Please don't leave. Here is a
post for you about Orencia.

It works fabulous. It takes awhile. Or at least to me, 2 and a half months
and that seemed like forever. To be honest, those couple months were
hard. I had felt so good on Humira forever, I forgot how bad it was in the
beginning.

Had no side effects at all with it. You get 3 IV;s, 2 weeks apart and then
its every 4 weeks.

I had to get back on pred till it started to work but I am off pred and am
only on MTX now. Heaven.

Love it. Half hour IV every four weeks. Not like Remicade which was a
couple hours.

Love it. Good luck. Bee

Bee - Thanks for the PM and for posting this. Quick question if you don't mind. Why did you switch from Humira to Orencia. Did the effects of Humira start to wane, or were you beginning to develope side effects from the Humira?

I am currently on Remicade, I took it for over a year, went off for 6 months while I was tried on Rituxan, then back to Remicade, but am having side effects. If I could stay on Remicade I would, because it has helped more than anything else I've tried. Enbrel worked less than a year, Humira did nothing and Rituxan did nothing.

I'm so glad to hear Orencia is working for you! I'm really hoping to hear some more positive Orencia stories, as I'm getting towards the end of the line as far as biologics, and I'm sure my Rheumatologist is going to push for it on my June 26th. appt.

Thanks for the info!

BTW...I'm currently on Remicade 600mg every 5 weeks, Medrol 8 mg/day, Arava 100 mg/week, Lodine 600mgXL/twice daily, Cymbalta 60 mg/day, Ultram as needed, and medication for HTN, Hypothyroidism, and GERD.

Gale

Gale,

Humira stopped working. Or rather it still worked but the RA started to
break through. I got so bad waiting for Orencia because I thought Humira
wasn't working but it was, just not enough. I had no side effects but
needed it every week, right from the beginning. I loved Humira it was
such a miracle, almost immediately relief. You might try other discussion
groups like the one mentioned on that other post. I don't have the link
but it is the Arthritis Foundation and RA discussion group.

Did you have problems with MTX? Even if you thought it didn't work, if
helps all the TNF's work better and for longer amount of time. I just read
that some doctors are putting people on a tiny dose--2 or 3 pills or 7.5
mg just to help the TNF's. That small dose has less harm for liver and less
side effects but does the job.

I am surprised you quit Rituxin after only 6 months, as I've heard it can
take 6 months to start working. Its so hard to be patient when you can
feel your joints getting worse. But I was on Humira twice to eek out
whatever use out of it we could.

There are new ones coming on the market. I will do anything to play with
the kids and work. I have had such a better life on Humira and now
Orencia.

You can bring this to the top and maybe someone else will add to this
post for you.

Have a great day, Bee Thank you for your posting. I am trying to decide if I should go on Orencia. I really want to get off prednisone and can't even though I'm taking Enbrel. I hope to be able to get off it if I take Orencia.

Hi Anna!

How have you been? If you'd do anything to 'play with the kids and work" you might consider AP - I just boogie boarded at the ocean yesterday and was exhausted teaching my 6 year old to 'brace for waves' and tumble in the surf. You'd think I'd be exhausted today, but I'm not. I was up at 6:15 AM and rarin' to go. LOL. I soooo love AP.

You might have noticed that I haven't been posting my studies on the Arthritis Foundation site after the last foray you made to Arthritis Insight. That's because I was in a car accident (car just under totaled, I was minorly hurt and the baby was not hurt at all - Thank GOD! - and also importantly no stress flare!) and lost connectivity because of router problems. But I see I should continue there as it tends to keep you occupied over there. I'll post today. Thanks for showing me how important it is to keep up with you. If you would have stayed there I would have stayed here. Sigh.

But, the good news is - thanks to you and your peeps - 2 more people on AF just started AP from those controversial posts. And a couple of more over here! All thanks to you! I am really appreciative of how hard you are working to get people on AP! It seems when they read your posts and PM's they get questions - then research - then see how 'off' you are - then decide to try!

Maybe we'll have an AP get together in LA and learn to surf! It's on my list of things to do while I'm still alive and IN NO PAIN THANKS TO AP!

Pip - Queen of the Cult

Normally, I just don't post on these kind of threads. I'm not big into being nasty, rude etc and I don't like being accused of things that I don't do. But in this case, I'll make an exception...So let me try and get this straight. If you should disagree with the whole infection based theory and AP, you shouldn't post on AI. And God forbid if you do, you'll post of the AF forum???? Feel free, post away....all I have to say...What the hell are you thinking.

Lynn

ps...sorry to hear about your car accident. I'm glad no one was seriously injured.

Lynn4939268.3358217593What are these different forums you are mentioning?

No Lynn, not saying that at all. Just saying that I should have kept posting as these irrational post by some of your peeps are pushing people into looking into AP. And what they see makes sense - so they try AP. We'll see how they are in 6 months - but my guess is the cult is building an army - all thanks to one of the anti-AP'ers.

And I like most of the posts you make on AF. A lot of the studies are 'flawed' but that is hardly your fault. You are showing people where the research is and what is going on in the various therapies. That's all that AP'er want - info and the ability to make an informed decision.

Pip

P.S. Thanks about the accident. My daughter was scared and her shoulder hurt for about a minute but by the time the police arrived she told the officer that she was "OK cuz I can color again". You should have seen her calmly coloring in the back seat of the smashed car with 2 cars loads of adults freaking out!

Juliah-

She was talking about www.arthritis.org. I don't if "Anna" was referring to anything else.

Pip

That's all anybody with RA really wants...And I'll be honest with you..it annoys the hell out of me when people call the meds I take toxic. They haven't been for me or my sister-in-law who has taken MTX for years(around 15 or more she thought) I make decisions based on what I believe and what I think will work best for me. I'm in good health, except of course for the RA and I function quite well...I don't believe in the whole infection based theory and when asked I tell people why. I'm more inclined these days to do it with PM's so I won't be accused of things that aren't true. Nastiness just isn't my thing. I'm glad your family was alright and your daughter took it so well.

Sarah (clarky14), who used to post here lost her niece in a car accident several weeks ago. She was to be married this August. It has been devestating for her and her family.

Lynn

Lynn4939268.3585185185I did not get this post, must be some kind of code directed at one person
SOS
Huh?????

Almond Joy -

LOL - you hit the nail on the head! This is a continuation of a controversial thread from about 3 weeks ago. Lynn and I are in two opposite camps on what is happening to us with these diseases. I'm an AP'er - I believe an 'infection' started this whole thing. She believes in the 'auto immune' theory where your body goes kind of haywire and randomly starts attacking itself. For RA it would be the joints. For MS it's the nerves, I think. Either way, Lynn and I tend to be very outspoken and, for the most part, do not use scare tactics etc. We try to rely on science. Some anti-AP'er do not. Instead of allowing people to make their own choices based on their own research they send/post info that is purposely misleading with the intent of scaring people out of trying a treatment plan that works. You'd think anybody dealing with these diseases would be jumping up in down in happiness at having another option if/when their meds fail.

Lynn -

I don't ever think I've seen a post of yours with misleading information. You don't seem to be into 'scare tactics' and I like that about you. I'm talking about BeeBee/Anna and her 'you'll be in a wheelchair in two years', or 'babies will get black teeth or worse yet, 'you'll get Lupus'. Anybody doing any research at all into AP knows that is NOT true. And I can personally attest that after having to use a wheelchair 3 X only 5 months after diagmosis - I am not OUT of a wheelchair and doing quite well. (see my boogie board post :-)

I understand your reluctance to hear the word toxic used - and I think in looking back over my posts during the last controversy that I've only did that once. I try to be very sensitive to the fact that many people choose those drugs and to try not to 'scare' people. But when I was diagnosed I did serious research into what they were trying to give me - and I balked at plaquenil - one of the mildest drugs out there. Are there people on AI and AF on Plaq and not having problems - yes - but I was not willing to risk that drug. Many of us APer's, when reading the info on biologics think -"there has to be another way?". There is - one that most rheumy's don't tell us about. Antibiotics.

Just because MTX has been good to you and your sister is no reason to think that it is a mild drug. It was designed to work as a cancer cell killer. It's very nature is 'toxic'. I'm sorry; I am not trying to offend. This is what I thought BEFORE even finding out about AP.

One of the stats I saw on the 'official' RA sites like AF, and science sites like the CDC and NIH was info of the mortality rates of people with RA. One thing that freaked me out was seeing (once) something like 60% of all RA people are dead within 10 years. My baby was 5 when I was diagnosed. She'd be 15 when I died - horribly disfigured and always in pain. (Any reason we're not freaked when we get these diagnoses?). Yes, there are people on this board with these diseases longer than that. But I didn't know that. The first BB I was ever on was the Roadback.

My question is - is it the disease? Or is it the meds?

And my next question - if it is an infection (and how many people post wondering if their strep, their dental work, their ??? was the trigger) how much sense does it make to suppress the immune system? Wouldn't that make it easier for the microbes to multiply? Is that why the disease eventually overwhelms the drug?

I don't think anybody has accused you of sending misleading info. We all know who is doing that. :-) And I've PM'd in the past - especially to parents dealing with children. As a mother of a child with a 'cosmetic' AI disease (but AI just the same) I am terrified that hers will continue on to something much more horrible. As a mother - I would hate to think that I started out on something linked to lymphoma etc (we adults can do what we want!!!) when there was something else I could research and try first for my child. If only to buy my daughter some time. I have NEVER written to a parent and said "you're giving your child cancer" like some of the anti-APer's do about AP - which they've never tried either.

I don't suppose you can keep somebody we all know on a shorter lease, can you?

Pip

P.S. Maybe you should can comment on some of the research I'm posting. You know, from the 'other side'. How are we going to help people learn and make decisions if nobody posts anything about the research you and I post? I still can't believe nobody commented on the repercussions of that diabetes study I posted. That just stunned me.

I think anyone should post any info they have, and if people disagree with
that info, they can post why they disagree and the evidence for it. What
makes me crazy is people who try to make it personal. Like, if someone is
on AP and believes in the infection theory, they're not choosing that
treatment as a personal insult to someone who is on enbrel. Or if
someone points out an article was written by a PR company, it's not a
personal attack on the person who posted the article. There's far too
much of that sort of obsfucation going on all the time (IMO).

I think in the case of this thread it's confusing for some because it's about
a situation that spans at least 2 message boards and has been going on
for a while. While some people think APers are "against" anyone on
traditional therapy (not true at all from what I've seen), the fact is there
are some traditionalists who have made it their persoanl mission in life to
campaign against AP. Why, I can not fathom. Nor can I comprehend what
personal gain they get by these actions, especially since a lot of it seems
to be focussed on spreading misinformation.

I think the best thing anyone can do for themselves and their health is
collect the facts, (and I do mean facts---not a bunch of jumbled up half-
truths and sound bites), talk to a bunch of people and then make an
informed decision about what kind of treatment they want.

People would also do well to research which drugs they want to take, see
the toxicity profiles for themselves, and assess wether those risks are
worth it to them. Denying drugs are toxic is not helpful. I am on some
"toxic" drugs, and if AP doesn't work for me I will be damn grateful to
have them, and I will continue to use them despite what I believe to be
their toxic nature. But I will recognise the potential harm they may do to
me and safegaurd accordingly. On a personal note, my step aunt died last
year of liver disease caused by arthritis drugs. Also, antibiotics are not
without short and long term side effects. But those side effects are much
less daunting and more easily managable than many traditional arthritis
drugs.

I am on some "toxic" drugs, and if AP doesn't work for me I will be damn grateful to have them, and I will continue to use them despite what I believe to be their toxic nature. But I will recognise the potential harm they may do to me and safegaurd accordingly.

Amen, sister. It's not like if AP fails I'm not going to get on that ladder. I'll have no choice - because of that aforementioned child and husband. And you bet your sweet bippie I'm going to be grateful for them.

Pip

I'm shocked and dismayed at the attitudes of a large percentage of people with autoimmune diseases who don't research and educate themselves about their diseases and treatments. They rely on other people, forum advice, and blindly take the medication their physician's hand them. They do this without questioning the physician. Why, I don't understand? I personally question everything.

Pip, Gimpy, Brisen, and all of the other people that are on AP therapy thank you for posting information and research about the disease and the therapies. For everyone else thank you for posting about the other treatments and the diseases. We can never have too much information. Maybe it will stick to some of the people who do no research or questioning.

I've found you have to be your own advocate, you need to know as much as your doctor knows about your disease and treatment. It's not that difficult. Doctors aren't Gods, wizards, or any different than you and I. If your doctor doesn't want you questioning him/her then it's time to find another doctor. I'm on my third RD and this one I plan on keeping around for a long time. You have to take an active role in your disease and treatment process, not just be the vessel.

I appreciate any help with new treatments and research and once again thank you to everyone who posts. I can sort through it all and use what pertains to my particular set of medical issues. Lindy

[QUOTE=LinB]

I appreciate any help with new treatments and research and once again thank you to everyone who posts. I can sort through it all and use what pertains to my particular set of medical issues. Lindy

[/QUOTE]

Lindy: I couldn't have said it any better! I agree 100%. Take care, Karin

This will be my last comment on this thread because I believe it has outlived it's usefulness. First, I like Anna and consider her a friend. While we don't agree on everything....I would certainly never attempt to control what, where or how she posts. She is entitled to her own opinions and really from what I've witnessed there is plenty of misinformation of both sides. I post info that I think is helpful to people with RA. What they do with it is up to them. It's not my job to try and influence how someone makes their medical decisions. For the most part, the people I've met are well informed about their options and they choose accordingly. As for the whole"toxic" med issue. I know a great deal more about chemotherapy drugs than the average person, perhaps that is why I don't respond well to the scare tatics used by some people concerning MTX. Untreated and uncontrolled RA boosts your risk of lymphoma ...those with a low degree RA had the lowest risk of developing lymphoma, while those with a moderate level of RA had seven times the risk. Those patients with the highest level of RA had 71 times the risk of developing this cancer.

..The risk of lymphoma is substantially increased in a subset of patients with RA: those with very severe disease.....

http://sciencedaily.healthology.com/arthritis/article3960.ht m

Lynn

Lynn4939268.5743402778 I confused about the connection between taking mtx and lymphoma. Aren't most people on mtx concerned about the toxicity to their liver? Is the only way to avoid lymphoma by treating your RA with mtx? I tried the url and it just took me to a page of general medical topics---I'm not sure which one is pertinent. I haven't seen anyone post false and scary information about mtx---not sure what that remark was about. I'm not posting this to attack you, Lynn, I just found that last post really confusing and maybe a wee bit misleading. Also, I'm not sure how "untreated" RA came into the topic. Do you mean to imply people using AP aren't treating their RA?

I just don't understand. I know that was supposed to be your last post but could you explain?

Just sign me
Confused By Your Post

I'm editting this post to remove "In fact, I have never seen anyone try to scare anyone about their treatment choice and push their own preferred choice of therapy on anyone on any board (except maybe to use enbrel a few times)" because after thinking about it it ocurred to me that I've seen posts trying to scare people off AP.

"...and his shoes were laced with irony...."
Gimpy-a-gogo39268.5969791667Sorry, Lynn...I finally figured out your url was corrupted by the AI board. Thank you for the inofrmative article which explained mtx has no role in the increased risk of lymphoma (although the jury is still out on TNF inhibitors), and that the increased risk of lypmhoma is because of the RA itself. I don't mean to put words in your mouth, or post as it may be, but I think you were pointing out mtx has a good safety profile in terms of developing lymphoma. Sorry about that.

I'm still confused by the other stuff in your post, though.

And to be honest, when I take mtx it's my liver I worry about. Not sure what's true for other people.
TNF's and Lymphoma...

Patients with rheumatoid arthritis (RA), an autoimmune, inflammatory disease marked by progressive joint and organ damage, face a high risk of developing cancer. Their vulnerability, especially to lymphoma and leukemia, may be due to the nature of RA. Disease-modifying antirheumatic drugs (DMARDs) - including tumor necrosis factor alpha (TNF᩠antagonists, a type of biologic DMARD - have also been implicated. TNF blockers, which work by attaching to and impeding chemical messengers behind inflammation, have had a significant impact on the treatment of RA. They have also been linked to lymphoma among users. In fact, reports of lymphoma prompted the Food and Drug Administration to mandate adding a cancer risk warning to the labels of three TNF blockers: etanercept (Enbrel), infliximab (Remicade), and adalimumab (Humira).

Motivated by persistent concerns and inconclusive studies, researchers at Harvard Medical School's Brigham and Women's Hospital set out to investigate the association between treatment with TNF blockers and occurrence of cancer in a large sample of patients with RA. Their results, featured in the September 2006 issue of Arthritis & Rheumatism (http://www.interscience.wiley.com/journal/arthritis), indicate that biologic DMARD therapy poses no greater risk for cancer than therapy with a standard prescription DMARD, methotrexate (MTX

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=50985 ...

And

In this study, researchers analyzed data on 13,000 people who took part in the U.S. National Data Bank of Rheumatic Disease between 1998 and 2005. Of those, 48 percent had taken biologics. Among these patients, there were 623 reported new cases of non-melanoma skin cancer and 537 reported cases of all other kinds of cancer.

The researchers compared those rates to rates of cancer in the U.S. general population and found that rheumatoid arthritis patients who used biologics did have an increased risk for melanoma and non-melanoma skin cancers but did not have a greater risk for other types of cancers.

"While longer follow-up may be required, this data shows the use of biologic therapy is not associated with increased risks of lymphoma, lung cancer or other cancers among those with rheumatoid arthritis," researcher Dr. Frederick Wolfe, project director, National Data Bank for Rheumatic Disease, said in a prepared statement.

http://healthday.com/Article.asp?AID=535978

And for the record, I'm not implying anything about AP not treating RA. I believe it works as a DMARD....
LynnLynn4939268.6214930556 Thanks, Lynn...I was just repeating what the article you posted the link to said about the jusry still being out on TNF inhibitors. (Quote" Whelan, however, notes that newer treatments, such as anti-TNF alpha drugs, may still have some connection to the development of lymphoma. ") I don't know much about them since I'm not on them and hope to never have to be, although if I do have to be I will use them.

I note when the topic of AP comes up, that the issue often gets sidetracked by someone accusing APers of being "against" traditional therapies, or using scare tactics about traditional therapies to promote their "cause". For instance, note how this thread somehow almost morphed into me trying to prove mtx is toxic to the liver. Actually, most APers are just trying to optimise their treatment and share information the way anyone else does with their choice of treatment. No one on enbrel, mtx, humira, etc., is constantly having to defend their choice or prove it's better than other people's therapies.

And no one else is constantly having to defend that their therapy works for some people. Yes, I have heard stories of people who tried AP and it didn't work for them. I have also heard the same story about every other RA drug in existance.

The fact is it does work for many people. There are many clincial studies showing its effectiveness. It's not thousands and thousands of deranged people claiming to have RA or claiming to be improved by AP, just to get the poor unsuspecting RA victim to drop their traditional therapy and go on a wild nancy pancy goose chase of pain so the pretenders can laugh at their misfortune. The Road Back Foundation wasn't set up as a mass non-profit conspiracy to mislead people, f**k up their therapies, and get them to stop buying Remicade. There is no cabal of APers sitting around plotting how to discredit traditional therapies so that they can...they can...what would they be getting by doing such a thing?

The fact is people promote AP because it worked for them, and they want to share what, in comparisome to what else is available, is a relatively benign treatment with other people who are suffering the way they once did.

I'm still just beginning AP (and am on mtx and plaquenil) and I don't know how my story will end (although I have had lots of improvement since I started antibiotics). I'm actually doing incredibly well on mtx, but I still want to get off it. Do you know why? The toxicity is part of it, but the main reason is that SOMEDAY IT WILL STOP WORKING. This is a fact. One which I have confirmed with my rheumatologist. Then I will have to start adding more and more drugs to my regimen and then I will be taking 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 20 pharmaceuticals. Frankly, that's something I'd like to avoid.

AP is the only RA treatment where you take less drugs over time rather than more.

There is no indication AP will ever stop working if the antibiotics are rotated every 5 or 6 years.

Even if it does stop working, I will have gained however many years it did work before getting back on that drug ladder.

Would it be possible for the doubters to just be happy that AP is working for some people instead of constantly trying to discredit it? Or accusing them of trying to "scare" people on traditional drugs? Or trying to put them on the defensive.

If people want to take mtx or whatever for their RA, all the more power to them. Like I've said many, many time, I'm on them myself. But that doesn't mean those drugs aren't toxic. My rhuematologist, my pharmacologist, and my pharmacist have all informed me mtx is very toxic.

Lynne, I am not meaning to imply you have claimed AP is a bogus therapy, (but I do note several times now you have cliamed APers have come down on you for your choice of treatment and I just have never, ever actually seen somebody do that to you. It seems sort of designed to get APers on the defensive.) Anyway, this post isn't directed at you and is more of a general response to this whole ongoing issue and controversy around it.
Gimpy-a-gogo39268.6550115741Here we go again ROFL

Ima Nut
Hesa Nut
Shesa Nut

You guys/gals need to lighten up

But then what would you have to be entertained by, AlmondJoy?

But you're right. There's some people around from another forum trying to stir this stuff up and I fell for it. They're the winnah's!

Ah, the murky soup of RA treatment broth.

Guilty as charged.
Hi Gimpy....there are 3 Ap boards, and lots of RA boards..Some of us belong to a few....
I have seen it before, some people will come on and say, they wont take mtx, or whatever.....
I have been on Mtx over 10 years, never had liver probs, its the first drug our rheummies try, and it does kind of upset me, to read people say its toxic..I'm still here!! And i am taking less drugs, NOT MORE, having things under control, with meds..
I got lucky, mtx, Humira, Relafen agreed with me...I got it so bad, i had to get a kne replacement in3 years..
My mom had lupus, Ra, and lived till 83////so i got RA, and if my grown children get it, i cant substantiate its from some reason, like a bacteria, or something lke that...

I'm still taking Prempro, didn't panic like some, and have an improvement in my bone density scan..

So, its not always people from other boards, but we all go lurk on other boards, why not...And, if i listened to my doctor, and didn't question them, is that so bad? I got good results..
we can agree to disagree.........and good luck to any trreatment you take...we don't need more stress, if you have success, great
I read the Harvard Medical school study and it prompted me to see the dermatologist to look at my moles and few other tiny spots on my face. In fact these spots were insignificant to me, but not to the dermatologist. He did biopsies and they both were very small, surface basal cell carcinomas! I was shocked and ended up with 2 Moh's extractions and a small skin graft on my nose. If I hadn't read that study about an increase in skin problems then I wouldn't have caught the basal cells in their very early stages. This is a perfect example of how research, reading, and understanding the findings can save us. Lindy

I don't think you 'fell for it'. Lynn is having a decent convo about her views. That's more than fair.

BeeBee/Anna continues to be a problem. Lynn doesn't want to speak to her as a friend and ask that she stop trolling. That's her perogative.

You explained why you feel ganged up on by the anti-APer's. You could have put the words in my mouth too. In fact, I even Amened you.

Pip

Thanks, Pip! I feel like I did fly a wee bit off the handle, there, though. Balanced, thought out conversations about opposing view points can be quite productive.
Okay, what the heck is "Amened"?
Lindy, you're right. Where I get treated they really encourage patient education and empowerment. They do this because even though it can be aggravating for the medical professionals they find people who take an active interest in their disease and treatment have better outcomes. My doctor's have always encouraged me to ask questions and they know I'm an internet research junkie. I'm don't consider myself to be an easy patient to treat...I don't just sit back and agree with everything they suggest I try. I have relationships based on mutual respect. I wouldn't see a doctor who won't listen to my views and opinions concerning my treatment. That's just a no-brainer for me....I also read and research...It never occured to me not to. I make my decisions based on what I think will work best for me..I assume everyone else does too.

LynnMe too....i have had 6 to 7 rheummies, if i dont like them...i get a new one....i have plenty to pick from..

i go into the exam with a note pad, and ask all my questions, and check them off...
all i'm saying, is i was not afraid to take any meds....i had it so bad, and i got lucky with the meds i took..

i dont just go to a rheumatologists, there are ortho docs, eye docs, gynies...sure its best to ask questions

Pip - I've been at work all day, just checked in, and hot damn! Someone sure brought this June 17th thread back to life! For what reason, I'm not quite sure.

I'm sorry to read about your car accident, but glad to hear no one was hurt. Did the accident happen yesterday when you went to the beach?

BTW...kudos on your boogie boarding! Have you posted your patient testimonial on RB yet? If not, you should! I was finally able to kick my headache today, so I'm not backing down on my mino just yet. Tomorrow's another mino day, so we'll see what happens!

Take care,

Gale

Damn - didn't notice the date. And a poster with only 2 posts! LOL Oh well, since we know where they came from maybe they'll enjoy my new posts on AF.

Actually - it's cool that a convo is going between the 2 sides. As long as we all learn to get along!

Thanks about the accident. I really need to learn how to drive. :-) No, it was Friday. Not having connectivity really thru out my sense of time. It seems like forever but it's only been less than a week.

And no - I haven't posted my testamonial. I could. I just want it to be special to show how I feel about this. I mean, really special. I just can't think how to do it. And I better. My year is coming up on 8/25.

Pip

[QUOTE=Gimpy-a-gogo]Thanks, Pip! I feel like I did fly a wee bit off the handle, there, though. Balanced, thought out conversations about opposing view points can be quite productive.
Okay, what the heck is "Amened"?
[/QUOTE]

LOL-- I think she means "amened" as in "Amen, Sista!" oh.....duh!
Well, Amen, to you too.
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