Ok so I need your advice here. I know most of you guys are parents so hopefully yall can help me. Most of you know i guess that my daughter Kelsay is 5. Well she has hit this defient stage to say the least and I have run out of ideas. Shes in the whole talking back Im not going to listen to you stage. THe only last thing that i could think of was put soap in her mouth every time she doesnt listen or talks back to me. Am I so wrong in doing that? My mom was over tonight and I had to do that, the soap was i kid you not in her mouth for 4 secs at the most and its actually slowly starting to work. Well I guess when she left she called my dad all upset and pissed off that i did this. I am in tears im so upset. I would NEVER do anything that would cause harm to my daughter. She is my life!!!! She is a VERY stubborn little girl so nothing else has worked. Can you guys help me out here?
~Shannon~
very tricky one . i had 3 kids and they were all so different when it came to discipline . i tried soap and other things that tasted awful but it never really worked . i found that taking away something that they they really like sometimes works. with my daughter all i had to do was say i am not your friend anymore and she would break into tears ( nasty I know , but it worked ) she is 21 now with two kids and we are the best of friends. the boys were different .taking away their special things was what worked (ie playstation, toys etc ) good luck i remember very well how difficult that stage is.But is what im doing so horribly wrong? This is the email he sent to me. He makes me out to be some horrible mother......
Shannon, Kelsay is YOUR daughter. Obviously she sounds "strong willed". There is a good book called "The Stong Willed Child" author ?, but I have seen it recommended several times. Calmly explain to your parents what Kelsay has been doing lately if it will make you feel better.
Maybe it won't take anymore soap to do the trick but have you tried time-out, no tv, going to bed earlier, no treats, or how about a swat on the hiney if you spank? Wooden spoon worked for me, but I believe in spanking, probably not too popular nowadays but I'm from the old school and have grown, well adjusted kids. No i do not believe in beatings or marks of any kind but all I had to do was put the spoon on top of the fridge and my strong willed son straightened right up. I did wash his mouth out with soap once for cursing one time when he was four but my ped. said not to do it anymore for some reason. He was from the old school too and spanked his kids.
My mom used a little switch and I have brought one in and showed my son how it would hurt on his hand but I didn't use it. How did your parents discipline you? You may want to remind themI think I lived with a bar of soap in my mouth for most of my childhood.
Parenting is such a personal issue. For some kids, time outs just don't do
it. Is there anything that she loves activity wise that you can take away if
the poor behavior continues?
Does she start school this year? I know you probably have a few weeks
until she goes but find out what discipline plan the teacher uses in the
classroom. If it seems effective, you could carry it over to at home as
well. That way, there would be no confusion on her part.
I know how frustrated you must be. Give me my middleschoolers anyday.
I taught first grade for one year and wanted to pull my hair out! My little
boy is only 3 so, for now at least, the time out method works for him. If I
really want to make a point, he loses one of his matchbox cars. His issue
is mainly impluse control. My best friend is having the mouthy issue with
her little boy. She has called me many nights in tears, and has also
fought with her mother.
Sorry I can't be of more help. Hopefully somebody with older kids can
offer advice. I know I will also need it in the future. Come on, Super
Nanny, Dr. Phil....... Just realize that every parent has been where you
are.
BeckyMona, I have tried everything you've mentioned. The spankings from me really arent much of anything to be afraid of. I think they hurt me more then they hurt her lol They never did the spanking, gettin my mouth washed out w/ soap thing w/ me. I got grounded and got things taken away but we have tried that and she doesnt care. She just goes "fine i dont want it then" I did tell my mom why i was doingi t when she was here...but nobody can say stuff to my face. It's a bunch of crap I did the "I don't want it then" to my parents and my Dad said fine. He
then proceeded to drive the two of us to a Goodwill drop off point and we
said goodbye to the toy. I didn't say that very often.
My dad is a very direct person. When I slammed my door-it was removed
from the hinges. I remember slouching and leaning back in my chair-just
to tick them off. Later, the chair was removed during mealtimes. If my
behavior changed, I got the "privilages" returned to me.
You are not doing anything that bad! You parents need to realize that
you have your own family now. How they raised their kids isn't the issue!
I am sorry that your mom and dad are reacting this way.
Shannon,please don't be hurt by my answer. I don't mean it to hurt you or to imply you are a bad mother. In fact, from your past posts, you seem to be a very loving and devoted mother.
However, my personal opinion, is that I would not put soap or anything else that could potentially cause them to get sick, into their mouths. Many years ago, when my daughter and granddaughter were living with us for a while, my daughter put a drop of Tabasco sauce on my granddaughter's tongue. I know it was not enough to hurt her but it broke my heart to see that. And my granddaughter is now 17 and she and her mom are closer than any I've ever seen.
I spanked one of my children one time. That was because she ran into the street without looking and nearly got hit by a car. I had to do something memorable to get her to stop doing that (running into the street) Other than that, I didn't spank my kids.
When my oldest was about 4 or 5, she also became a little terror. Extremely strong willed, constantly defied me, etc. After trying everything I could think of, I took away her favorite toys and put them away. I told her she could have them back when she could behave herself. I didn't waver, no matter what. She finally got the idea that she had to change her attitude to get her precious toys back. That was the most effective thing I ever did.
It wasn't the last time, either. But after a few times, all you have to do is warn them they will lose their favorite things again, and they straighten right up.
Please give it a try. Hope it works for you.
Much love,
Nini
Being a parent is the hardest job in the world. They don't come with instruction manuals and we have to learn on the job. I wish I could say there's some magic training method or an expert like a "Child Whisperer" we could bring in to help us know what to do. You're gonna make mistakes, and there's always going to be things you wished you handled differently. And you'll just have to step back, try to remove yourself from the emotions involved and ask yourself how you could have handled things better.
It's also important to remember a defiant child is not a sign of a bad parent. It is actually a normal, healthly sign, as they test the boundries, explore their power, and figure out cause and effect of their actions. And sometimes when other people (like our parents are around, we get extra uptight when our kids misbehave, because we're worried what they are thinking about us a parents). And when get uptight, our kids feed off of that and the situation gets worse.
I don't think the soap in the mouth is a very good idea, I must admit. It's not going to hurt her, and in the short term it may get you a desired result, but I think you can find better ways to motivate her to good behavior.
Kelsay's growing up and she needs some help in dealing with that. Try not to back her into a corner, do this right now or else kind of thing. Giving kids choices at this age is really important, so that they feel they have made the decision. But you set it up so they are moving toward the final goal you want to achieve. "Do you want me to read a story for bedtime or sing some silly songs together when I tuck you in?" - will work much better than "Go get ready for bed right now".
Transition times are always hardest for kids. Timers are great to use for transitions, like when playtime is over and it's time to clean up your toys. Hand her a timer, and say "Okay, set the timer for five minutes and then when it goes DING I want to see how fast you can clean up the toys tonight. Do you think you feel fast today?" Make it a game, and let her feel proud about what she has done. Postive reinforcement always works better than negative in the long run, because not only does it leave everyone feeling happy and less stressed, but, Kelsay will feel how good it feels to feel successful in accomplishing what you have asked her to do.
Parenting is kind of like sending cows into the cattle shoot, LOL. You want to gently guide them where you want them to go, without them realizing you are doing it!
Don't beat yourself up Shannon. Every day presents new situations and new challenges!
Shannon I can see both your parents issue and yours so clearly, I've lived through both sides LOL. Honest my mom used to wear me out (I thought) with a switch and when I had kids her and my dad thought it was awful if I lost my temper, if I spanked, if I was curt, you name it, I always heard about it. When I see or hear my daughter do the same things it tears me up! And I know she is a wonderful mother. Your parents know the same thing about you, they just think they know more. Thats what grandparents are for didn't you know?
We all make mistakes, Kelsay will be just fine, don't second guess yourself and if you think about it calmly you may want to try something else. Good luck sweetie, this too shall pass
COME HERE KATIE YOU NEED SOME MORE!!!
Sorry Shannon, living proof that the soap ain't gonna work!Please get this under control while you are still physically able. My husband has never liked to displine and now my son & I are like two kids fighing all the time, which causes problems for everyone. Other than his mouth he is a good kid.I cry myself to sleep many nights wondering what I did wrong. He is 17 now & I wished I stepped up years ago. Good luck.Shanon, you're a great mum dealing with the challenges of a 5 year old, who is learning that she has a "contribution'" to make!! Oh boy - I remember that time. We used to call it negativity, it's now called "emerging assertiveness".
Okay, Shannon, darl...this is my two cents worth.
Stop beating yourself over the head with that big stick for starters. As parents we all do our best with what we have at the time.
I have a daughter exactly the same age and similar temperament (and I am surprised about this? Tad like me she is). Talk about strong willed, stubborn, articulate, quick brained, smart mouthed and has already completed her training to be an attorney!!!
I so relate to what you were going through until about 5 weeks ago when I tried something new...
I STOPPED TALKING.
See Neve is very verbal and that is how she engages me and she can argue better than anyone I know.
I stopped talking and acted. If she didn't eat her dinner - no dessert but I didn't talk at all. If she didn't settle for bed and was bouncing around, I walked out and closed the door turning out the light as I went.
This WORKED!!!! I was so amazed.
Sit down with a piece of paper and right down the behaviours that are not acceptable...then create a simple consequence for each so you know ahead of time when you aren't 'stressed' what your plan is.
If talking back to you is the biggest issue...my consequence for that would be each time it happens...no talking...immediately go and take her most beloved item and put it away in lock down. Happens again...same routine...next beloved item. I reckon before you hit the four time she will get the message and don't give them back...not for at least a month and when the behaviour has improved. She will remember why she lost them if she is even half as smart as mine and I think she is similar.
That is what worked for me.
I just wanted to say that both my brother and I had our mouths washed out wth soap as children - we were dragged into the downstairs cloakroom and either had to to do it ourselves with a bar of soap and mum watching, or she would do it for us - and it has done no harm whatsoever!
If anything it has helped as we both now love an old fashioned English sweet, called Cherry Lips, which tastes of soap and feels soapy in your mouth. We love them, most people hate them!
Shannon, darl, clear your PM box, it is full and I want to send you a message, woman.moana - I use to use the wooden spoon on my daughter when she was defiant. I have not used one on her since she was 4, because her Granny did not like that I punished her. But the spoon did help her to behave, I only had to use it when she was really defiant, but most times I just had to have it in my hand and she would straighten up.
And one time... she went to VBS and she would not behave for the Preacher's wife, so I sent the spoon along with her, and all they had to do was show her the spoon and she behaved the whole time she was there.
shannon- I know what you are going thru, except my mom was all for punishing my kids, it was the in-laws who were not. So, I had to stop punishing my daughter in any way shape or form, because if I told her no they would give in. Like my daughter if I took the tv from her, she would go to visit granny and get to watch tv. And her granny would know I told her no tv.
Wow! I'm sorry that you're having such a hard time with your parents. Based on the email you posted from your dad, I think there was a slight overreaction there. Certainly soap for 4 secs in the mouth isn't quite the same as putting it on her cereal. It would have been nicer if your mom had offered you some advice on how to deal with the situation rather than going to your dad and not saying anything to you. I have the same type of family situations. I think we probably all have.
Fortunately,there's been a lot of good advice posted for you. I have a 2 yr old who is very smart and knows Mommy's limitations quite well. The thing that I have found that works the best is taking away things that she likes. Time outs were tried but didn't work as well because she just stayed in her room for the minute she was in there and played with her toys. However, taking her favorite toys did the trick. Isabel, my daughter, is my first child and it's really tough to know what to do all the time. Mistakes are bound to happen. In my situation, I know that Isabel is going to misbehave more when her father is here on a visitation. That's her "trigger" as the books say. Is there a "trigger" for Kelsay?
At any rate, soap in the mouth doesn't make you the world's worst mom. I know that you probably already knows this. It's just hard hearing that your mom and dad are so upset and don't agree with your punishment. Try not to beat yourself up. People,even family members, aren't always going to agree with your parenting. Hugs for you!
Ignoring their bad behaviour and rewarding their good made them see that it was better to behave, by rewarding I dont mean i went out and bought them stuff, I just gave lots of praise and extra ME time to play or just sit and read with them etc.
You dad will have different views to you, there is no wrong or right way but whatever you do it will be trial and error. Heck I make errors still and I have been learning for 19 years,
You have to think of what SHE is gaining from this behavior. Kids are master manipulators, and what does she want. Well, that is easy for a kid her age...she wants things HER way and she knows that if she makes your life miserable then she can have it. I am a practicer of ignoring these temper tantrums. My daughter would throw herself on the ground, and yell but I would walk away and become completely unaccessable to her.
I remember one time we were shopping for A dress. (she remembers this too.) I picked two out and told her she had to pick one. Well, she wanted both and threw a whooper in the store. I calmly handed the dresses to the lady and said, "Sorry, we will go home now." OMG she was MMAADD! I told her when she could make her choices without a fit, I would buy her a new dress. I waited about two weeks and it went flawless.
Even now that she is almost 17, I will not engage in her tantrums, because I will not tolerate it. I will tell her to go to her room until she can talk to me the way I talk to her. Now, she starts and says ok I'll go to my room until I calm down.
Well, the good news is that extreme strong willed children will NEVER be led into anything!
Also, Eleya is at the top of her speech and debate team. We can also argue constructively about politics and things, but when it gets too heated we both stop talking. Some of those EARLY lessons of when it is appropriate to talk and not sure pay off in spades.
Dang spelling!!
Thank you everyone for all your advice. I am definitly going to try it all. Looking at all the options you guys have given me i realize there are so many other ways I can go about it. But I still dont believe that what I did was wrong like my parents are making it seem like. Was it the best option? Probably not but I would never in a million years used it had I have thought that I was in anyway harming her. I havent replied to my fathers email yet cause I know if I do do it now I will completly go off and that is not what I want to do. Thank you again everyone for putting your advice out there for me.
Steph~ Yes Kelsay does have "triggers", She will usually act up more when she comes back from my fathers house when she sleeps over. He takes her every other friday night, sometimes saturday night and she is also completely thrown off cause last week and now for the next 2 weeks probably my husband is having to work overnights so he is home during the day now and not home for when she goes to bed. It is actually making all of us a little on edge I think. LOL
Cordelia~ I cleared out some of my PM's so now you can go ahead and send me oneJust stay calm and don't loose your temper. Emotionally charged discipline is never good, no matter what the punishment is. The things we say and do when they are done with the energy of anger come across much uglier and make everyone uncomfortable. And that isn't the end result you are looking for. You are just trying to be a gentle, but strong, consistent guidepost for your daughter to know what is acceptable and what isn't acceptable. Children are in effect little mirrors, and they will reflect all of our behaviors back to us. Just always keep in mind what you want reflected.
Maybe when you feel emotionally ready for it, you can sit down and have a heart to heart talk with your Dad. Emails are tough because the same sentence can often be read in different ways and can be misinterpreted as to their tone and meaning. Explain to him that you are trying hard, and you are bound to make mistakes, just as I'm sure he did when you were a child. And that you need his support and assistance in teaching Kelsay. I'm sure he's not doing anything intentially to undermine the lessons you are trying to teach, but let him know that sometimes that is what is happening. Approach him in a way that invites him to be a partner in teaching her. Parents usually can't say no to a child that is genuinely asking for help!
Oh boy, you have my sympathies. I remember all too well what it's like with strong-willed children and I bet it's not helping your medical issues any either. Unfortunately, no matter what you do, someone is going to have a negative opinion of it. I wonder what your ex would do to make your daughter behave as he seems to be such an expert. You've already been given some sound advice so there's nothing I can really add. I just wanted to offer some support and tell you I think you're a good mom who's just trying to find a solution. Hang in there.
BTW, my dad used to take a switch from the back yard and whip it across my legs and at times just grabbed me by the hair and pulled, neither of which I condone, and I can tell you I would have preferred a little 4 seconds of soap in my mouth.
Jesse, I know what you mean about the switch! Except I used to get the switching by my grandmother. She was a deeply devout Southern Baptist and believed the Bible told her to discipline that way. She would make ME go get the switch and bring it to her.
Somehow I just don't get that same lesson from the Bible! Can you imagine Jesus whipping a child with a stick to teach it a lesson? Somehow I think that she was missing the point in what she was reading all those hours she poured over the Bible!
It's possible that Grandpa lets her get away with more than you do and this is why you're experiencing the back talk issues when she comes home. However, I think that falls under grandparents' perogative.
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